Florida Anti LGBT

[tallslenderguy]

13 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

This is important. The legislature (at the behest of the governor) changed the law. Why? Was it in response to an actual problem, or was it (as I contend) simply doing the bidding of far-right activists in exchange for their electoral support?

Agreed.

There is a radical and influential element of the Republican party that believes simply being LBGTQ+ is "an actual problem."  

[hntnhole]

On 8/25/2024 at 11:43 PM, poundmyhole said:

the deliberate and systematic push to reduce the middle and lower classes living in the downtown area.  There has been thousands of new condos and apartments priced to cater to the "haves" and almost nothing in affordable housing

I too have noticed that, and it's offensive.  Local elections are coming up very soon, including the mayoral.  Yes, I know he's gay.  Yes, he's done some good things for the gay community.  There are other issues he's not done well on though, and he's mayor of the whole city, not just the donor class.  Write him a letter .... I have.   

[hntnhole]

On 8/26/2024 at 6:13 PM, PozBearWI said:

Of course, there is no connection between Ronnie and AIDS; save that as a leader he figured it was a self limiting problem

Isn't it interesting how just one sentence can incapsulate and entire Presidential term?

[PozBearWI]

8 minutes ago, hntnhole said:

Isn't it interesting how just one sentence can incapsulate and entire Presidential term?

Indeed and yet; we both know it is ever so much more nuanced than that.  There was a symphony of factions afoot then.  But yeah we didn't need the benefit of history to know why the Anita Bryant was happy as fuck that us queers were apparently dying off.  Look for why that is? Why?  Those f@&&0ts will be dead before my term is up.  No voters there....  And indeed.  I imagine there are some excellent books written, probably banned in some places, which were current then much as our current pundits write today about recent events.  

[SomewhereonNeptune]

On 8/28/2024 at 2:08 AM, Rillion said:

Do you have any evidence that classroom instruction was inappropriate before the parental rights bill was passed?

The book "Gender Queer" was one of those that was found in Florida Public Schools. Pinellas County -- traditionally a more liberal Florida county that includes cities like St. Petersburg -- found it and pushed for removal. Others have been found throughout the state, and parents who attempted to present the findings to the Clay County school board during public comment were shutdown quickly. From the meeting, available on Youtube:

• “Are you going to listen or are you going to run your mouth?” the school board member said. “You’ll get it back. But, you’ll get it back to talk about something besides reading pornography into a public television set.”

Wasn't that the point? If it couldn't be read during the Clay Count School Board meeting because of pornographic content, why should children be given unfettered access to the same material? And Florida isn't the only place where it happened. In Clark County, Nevada, the same sort of exchange happened and a citizen was removed under similar circumstances.

So those are two in Florida. One in Nevada for good measure. So it could be contended that there was inappropriate reading material that would fall within the law's purview.  

[hntnhole]

On 8/27/2024 at 3:35 PM, NEDenver said:

ask any of us who are stuck in families that are 90%+ Republican

Which is why I ditched the "smallish" (but second-largest population in Illinois, including the burbs) burg as soon as I could.  After H.S., off to school, and I only went back to visit on birthdays, anniversaries, funerals, etc.  I was actually afraid of what might come out of my mouth, once the political shitstorm started to fly.  Did my duty when the parents got old, but that was it.  

[BlindRawFucker1]

It is so sad to see what Florida has become.

 

I’m really torn.

 

Most of my family, on both sides, is from Florida.  I’d love to visit and support the LGBT businesses and those who support us.  But, that means that I am also supporting the state with taxes on any purchases.

 

I feel sorry for, and proud of, those who stay there and put up with all of the crap.

[NEDenver]

18 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said:

The book "Gender Queer" was one of those that was found in Florida Public Schools. Pinellas County -- traditionally a more liberal Florida county that includes cities like St. Petersburg -- found it and pushed for removal. Others have been found throughout the state, and parents who attempted to present the findings to the Clay County school board during public comment were shutdown quickly. From the meeting, available on Youtube:

• “Are you going to listen or are you going to run your mouth?” the school board member said. “You’ll get it back. But, you’ll get it back to talk about something besides reading pornography into a public television set.”

Wasn't that the point? If it couldn't be read during the Clay Count School Board meeting because of pornographic content, why should children be given unfettered access to the same material? And Florida isn't the only place where it happened. In Clark County, Nevada, the same sort of exchange happened and a citizen was removed under similar circumstances.

So those are two in Florida. One in Nevada for good measure. So it could be contended that there was inappropriate reading material that would fall within the law's purview.  

It only counts if it’s non cishet.  I took Flowers in the Attic out of my high school, so Genderqueer should be accessible for high schoolers.  You’re so fucking disingenuous.  

[BootmanLA]

23 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said:

The book "Gender Queer" was one of those that was found in Florida Public Schools. Pinellas County -- traditionally a more liberal Florida county that includes cities like St. Petersburg -- found it and pushed for removal. Others have been found throughout the state, and parents who attempted to present the findings to the Clay County school board during public comment were shutdown quickly. From the meeting, available on Youtube:

• “Are you going to listen or are you going to run your mouth?” the school board member said. “You’ll get it back. But, you’ll get it back to talk about something besides reading pornography into a public television set.”

Wasn't that the point? If it couldn't be read during the Clay Count School Board meeting because of pornographic content, why should children be given unfettered access to the same material? And Florida isn't the only place where it happened. In Clark County, Nevada, the same sort of exchange happened and a citizen was removed under similar circumstances.

So those are two in Florida. One in Nevada for good measure. So it could be contended that there was inappropriate reading material that would fall within the law's purview.  

So what we have is the opinion of one school board member and one person/parent trying to read parts of the book at the meeting. With no actual evidence of what the book actually contains.

As I understand it from reading about Gender Queer online, the primary objections are to images (not surprising, because it's a graphic novel) and only to a handful of those. The images being objected to include a reproduction of some figures on ancient Greek pottery, something that could easily and legitimately be shown in an Art History class. And most of the remaining objections are coming in the forms of challenges to ANY book that mentions gender identity or sexual orientation.

I doubt seriously this book was in an elementary school library (if so, it SHOULD be removed from there) but I see nothing wrong with it for middle and especially high school students. 

[BootmanLA]

And the problem remains: the law doesn't define what's appropriate, so teachers and librarians are left to wonder what they might have that violates the law. If they don't want to go to prison, they're likely to pull all sorts of things that could be defended but which would cost time and money that the schools don't have to fight (and which the craven school boards wouldn't want to fight even when it's right to do so). And the net result is what the right-wing asswipes want: removal of anything LGBT-oriented from public schools so that their bigoted message at home and in church goes unchallenged in the only other major area in the children's lives.

[SomewhereonNeptune]

22 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

So what we have is the opinion of one school board member and one person/parent trying to read parts of the book at the meeting. With no actual evidence of what the book actually contains.

Actually, in the case of the Clark County Nevada School Board, the parent read the book and began to read aloud a selected passage from the book, so he had first-hand knowledge of the contents.

But I can understand the argument on certain books becoming potentially offensive because they contained certain words or phrases that were more socially accepted at the time of writing than they'd be written in current day. Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn would be suspect today because of Mark Twain's use of that "N" word. One example. I'll concede that point and the hesitancy of how much the intent can confuse guidance.

But let's consider that in the light of things that 30-40 years ago that were common in society or TV that would never be aired today without creating a shitstorm. No one would dare want to air a series like "All In The Family", which was groundbreaking for its time because it would be too offensive to certain viewers. Comedy from generations ago would never happen today because some constituency would find it offensive. Hell, we haven't seen Mister Magoo for years because of the objections of the National Federation of the Blind finding it offensive (yeah, like they'd ever see it...that was a joke, y'all remember those). 

And since you mentioned this in a previous post -- if I had kids, I probably would give a fuck -- let me introduce you to me. I have 3 trans nieces/nephews (AMAB), as many gay family members, and a lesbian niece around whom I apparently cannot use the word "moist" (makes describing a cake pretty difficult). So do I get how LGBTQI2AS++ kids feel? Sure, as much as being a confused bisexual kid when I grew up and when any queer kid got a severe beatdown just for being that queer kid, or even thought to be the awkward kid who wasn't queer but was simply awkward. I survived it, in some ways it prepared me for the world afterward in a time when being a snowflake would have gotten your ass kicked. So I'm highly sympathetic to what kids may endure. Does it mean that I would necessarily agree that schools should be making all of the decisions and (in many cases) shutting parents out of the discussion? Absolutely not. End of the day, the parent has rights that can seem forgotten amidst all of these.

I'm all for an inclusive environment. Wish we had that 40 years ago, but we didn't. It doesn't mean that I want the pendulum to swing so far in any direction that it gets stuck in the rafters somewhere and hope there's a time when we can have a fairly civil discussion that includes disagreements. Besides, you're a fun guy to disagree with. 😃

I'll close on that as I think I've said all I can or desire to on the topic. We'll never agree 100%, won't even guess that we ever would, but wish you well on this. Peace out.

[SomewhereonNeptune]

On 8/31/2024 at 6:42 PM, NEDenver said:

It only counts if it’s non cishet.  I took Flowers in the Attic out of my high school, so Genderqueer should be accessible for high schoolers.  You’re so fucking disingenuous.  

Exactly how am I being disingenuous, since you don't know me at all? Read the post above this for an introduction as to who I am, I already know how ugly of a person you are by your comment.

[BootmanLA]

2 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said:

But let's consider that in the light of things that 30-40 years ago that were common in society or TV that would never be aired today without creating a shitstorm. No one would dare want to air a series like "All In The Family", which was groundbreaking for its time because it would be too offensive to certain viewers. 

"All in the Family" is still widely distributed via streaming, including on Amazon Prime, Apple TV, Pluto, and Hulu, among others. I'm not sure what you mean by "dare want to air" the show. In fact, it was more controversial when it was first airing (because it dared criticize the status quo, mocking unthinking conservative viewpoints) than it would be today, when it would be basically mainstream.

2 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said:

Hell, we haven't seen Mister Magoo for years because of the objections of the National Federation of the Blind finding it offensive (yeah, like they'd ever see it...that was a joke, y'all remember those). 

The problem with Mr. Magoo was that it was mocking those who have poor eyesight. There's this thing about jokes and comedy: they're a lot funnier and stand the test of time better if they punch UP, not DOWN. Mocking people for disabilities may have once been considered "a joke", but I think it's a good thing we no longer accept that, just as we don't accept blackface and other ethnic mischaracterizations - or at least, some of us don't. 

2 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said:

Sure, as much as being a confused bisexual kid when I grew up and when any queer kid got a severe beatdown just for being that queer kid, or even thought to be the awkward kid who wasn't queer but was simply awkward. I survived it, in some ways it prepared me for the world afterward in a time when being a snowflake would have gotten your ass kicked. So I'm highly sympathetic to what kids may endure. Does it mean that I would necessarily agree that schools should be making all of the decisions and (in many cases) shutting parents out of the discussion? Absolutely not. End of the day, the parent has rights that can seem forgotten amidst all of these.

Great example of a strawman argument. Nobody's arguing that schools should be making all of the decisions and shutting parents out. But parental rights can be taken too far - there was a time when you could discipline a child pretty much up to the point of not quite killing them and officialdom didn't bat an eye. Parental rights have to be balanced against the rights of the child, and the older the child gets, the more important it is to take the child's needs and wants into consideration. What the anti-Trans and anti-LGBT parent groups want is full and unrestricted authority over their kids because it's "Godly". 

2 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said:

It doesn't mean that I want the pendulum to swing so far in any direction that it gets stuck in the rafters somewhere and hope there's a time when we can have a fairly civil discussion that includes disagreements.

The pendulum is swinging AWAY from the left so fast and so hard it's not even on the left edge of center any more. The federal government issued some mild - exceedingly mild - guidance on how trans issues should be handled in schools to be consistent with recent Supreme Court rulings (including Bostock) and right-wing judges are issuing NATIONWIDE injunctions against the guidance (and similar regulations) based on a handful of parents complaining in one district (though obviously there are such people all over, just not nearly as numerous as they want people to think). There's no massive movement of that pendulum to the left; there's no movement AT ALL to the left any more, because Trump judges keep jumping in and blocking things and overturning long-established law simply because they feel empowered to do so.  I don't know what universe you're living in where you think the pendulum has moved too far to the left, but it's not this one.

[SomewhereonNeptune]

23 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said:

And since you mentioned this in a previous post -- if I had kids, I probably would give a fuck -- let me introduce you to me. I have 3 trans nieces/nephews (AMAB), as many gay family members, and a lesbian niece around whom I apparently cannot use the word "moist" (makes describing a cake pretty difficult). So do I get how LGBTQI2AS++ kids feel? Sure, as much as being a confused bisexual kid when I grew up and when any queer kid got a severe beatdown just for being that queer kid, or even thought to be the awkward kid who wasn't queer but was simply awkward. I survived it, in some ways it prepared me for the world afterward in a time when being a snowflake would have gotten your ass kicked. So I'm highly sympathetic to what kids may endure. Does it mean that I would necessarily agree that schools should be making all of the decisions and (in many cases) shutting parents out of the discussion? Absolutely not. End of the day, the parent has rights that can seem forgotten amidst all of these.

20 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

Great example of a strawman argument. Nobody's arguing that schools should be making all of the decisions and shutting parents out. But parental rights can be taken too far - there was a time when you could discipline a child pretty much up to the point of not quite killing them and officialdom didn't bat an eye. Parental rights have to be balanced against the rights of the child, and the older the child gets, the more important it is to take the child's needs and wants into consideration. What the anti-Trans and anti-LGBT parent groups want is full and unrestricted authority over their kids because it's "Godly". 

That's what you took away from what I wrote!?  I literally tell you my background and you make the argument that I'm suggesting that religion-freak parents are trying to take over school boards? REALLY!? Nope, you need to always be right and have the last word. No mention of my background, no mention of the fact that I lived through a level of private Hell like so many of us did from being an LGBTQ+++ kid growing up in a time when you'd routinely come home with black eyes or broken bones courtesy of classmates.

I think you've proven in other posts with me that you pick and choose what you care to believe about people. Good luck in your life, I'm done here.

 

Edited September 3 by SomewhereonNeptune
Editing to be slightly more kind, though the respondent really deserves less.

[Rillion]

You mentioned a couple books but never answered my question of if there were examples of inappropriate classroom instruction before they passed the law.