Iran/Israel/US discussion

[viking8x6]

Thank you for this. I think. 
 

21 minutes ago, nanana said:

Overview: 

- I think this is the most comprehensive article on the dubious value of the alliance with Israel: [think before following links] https://www.unz.com/factcheck/factcheck-how-israel-killed-the-kennedys/ (BTW, if you are inclined to assess the anti-semitic versus anti-Zionist quotient of this article, you should be or become aware that the author is Jewish.)

...

 

I think with this information you could certainly argue against my hypotheses and assertions that the Israeli alliance is bad news, but you cannot argue that there are no facts supporting it.  

Just to be clear, I wasn't, with my first response to your post, intending to call you out; my intention was only to respond to your addressing the "censorship board".

 

That said: The AI fact-checking is... excessively verbose and not really all that helpful IMO. But from that plus what I can glean in there of the original source being fact-checked, I'd rate the hypothesis that Israel/Mossad was responsible for the Kennedy assassinations as "one plausible theory among many", and not so much as "factual". 

 

However, my personal opinion is that you're completely correct about the current state of US-Israel relations vis-a-vis Middle Eastern politics and current conflicts is, indeed, problematic. I'm certainly not antisemitic, and from my understanding of it I wouldn't even say I'm anti-Zionist, but handsome is as handsome does. 

 

[nanana]

I  very much like the "one plausible hypothesis among many" designation.  It's just my job to come up with what I  think and what I act on, it's not my job to come up with what anyone else thinks and what they act on, and I  am not seeking that responsibility.  A long time ago, I  helped a lady at church install a phone line in her house, and she said something very memorable: "God told us not to judge, but he didn't tell us we had to be stupid."  It got a great chuckle out of me but pointed to a more important truth. In her parlance, I would count myself as stupid at some point if I  allowed myself to be paralyzed by the unknowables in my efforts to act in a way that aligns to my values.  It's not necessary to marshall a long and extensive fact base that includes quotes from people with unknown motives to know that I oppose genocide, assassination, war, people lying to the races, whipping up tribal hatred, misattribution of motives, defense of my loved ones, peace, and prosperity.  It's just incumbent upon me to know how to navigate the collection of people who react differently to shared and unshared input.  That is fucking complex, so definitely not trying to do others' sense-making for them.  

[PozBearWI]

Adding to that @nanana there is value in questioning the status quo.  

Given what the first few months have been like, I am concerned that other national leaders are going to exploit 47's weak points.   Netty certainly appears to be.  

[hntnhole]

1 hour ago, PozBearWI said:

 Netty certainly appears to be

He's built a career in exploiting the (assumed) "weak spots" of other nation's leaders.  But, as the old saying goes, flattery will get some folks everywhere.  Of course, that's only if the flatter-ee is susceptible to being flattered in the first place.  In the US, that susceptibility is world-renown by now.  What I wonder is, how deeply the EU leaders stooped to it.  

 

[PozBearWI]

@hntnhole time will tell...

[barefucker44]

I support Israel 100% and am very happy the US does.  I love that we bombed the shit out of Iran's facilities.  It was a beautiful flawlessly executed mission.

[hntnhole]

18 hours ago, barefucker44 said:

I support Israel 100%

As do I, assuming a meaning of Israel's right to exist, as well as other countries in the Middle East.  

No WWII-era nation went after the other Semitic populations.  Only one, with breathtakingly hellish results.  However, that was 80-some years ago, and that particularly hellish era is well over now.  Those days are a crystalline example of how a population of a nation, once the very font of the arts, culture, accomplishment, can return from the depths, becoming a valued nation again within the community of nations.  

I can understand (if not endorse) the hatreds the Islamic nations hold for the Israeli's.  That land (Israel) was traditionally Arab for centuries, and after the holocaust, the leaders of the world decided to take a sliver of the British Empire, and create the State of Israel, in a gesture of recompense for the horror recently experienced in Europe.  I would be surprised to learn that none of those WWII-era leaders considered the repercussions that would result, but it may well be the case.  After enduring a holocaust, of course some measure of compensation should be offered, even if not much thought was devoted to later developments.  

Thus, the world has implacable enemies living within a stone's throw of each other - literally,  How this finally gets resolved is beyond me (but it surely wouldn't be creating the biggest sea-side "resort" on the face of the earth either).  

[PozBearWI]

@hntnhole I'm there with you in reflection.  But, in addition; Netty has taken eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth to "and eye for decimation".  His aggression is beyond reasonable.  

Now, to be clear, that is his aggression, not the US.  

Man, the idea of Gaza Riveria is a rather mind boggling result.  A POV of "as long as it is good for me, it is the right thing to do.".  

[Erik62]

On 6/23/2025 at 5:38 AM, hntnhole said:

It is, to my mind anyway, inconceivable that these nations could be anywhere near to "friends" - that is simply asking too much.  What is not asking too much however, is that the hatreds carefully built up over the centuries be turned into at least some measure of co-existence, if not anything close to friendship.  It occurs to me that there are too many similarities between belief-systems - each with their own concrete belief that they - and only they - are beloved by some Deity.  

It's well past time to consciously set these false divisions aside, and focus on what unites us, rather than that which divides us.  

 

They have been friends, for many years although any current zionist politician would agree. 

   Golda Meier, in an interview said, "I was born a Palestinian. The only reason I am now Jewish is because Israel became a country which I live in". If required I am can repost her interview. 

  Many other Jewish Rabbis & scholars have spoken of those days when at Festival times, the young Jewish & Palestinian children would be cared for by the party not in festival mode. 

   As dogs & cats can live peacefully for years in households so too will the local Jew & Palestinian. 

   This hate & mistrust can be broken but it will take many cool heads & young children sharing sweets & playing together before peace can truly be brought to the Levant. 

[hntnhole]

Thanks, Erik62, for that interesting addition to the subject. 

I would only remark that that PM held the position over 50 years ago, and much has changed in the area since then.  

[nanana]

I've met many american jews who spend their vacation trying to build peace and friendship across the East and West Banks.  It is a critical part of the story.  I  am definitely opposed to the policies of the government of Israel, but I  find many people who would call themselves Zionists truly inspiring in their desire for peace and the good of all.  It is so easy to let verbal efficiency obscure one's ability to vocalize appreciation for all of God's tribes.  

[hntnhole]

It seems the President needs to acquire a dictionary; he seems not to know the definition of "obliterated".  Reports subsequent to that bombing campaign suggest something well short of "obliteration".  

Unfortunately, we here in the US are embroiled in a national issue, which has just been tipped towards the President's favor. 

At least we Americans get to concentrate on a domestic issue, rather than some foreign one.  The "fallout" may prove most destructive to the American People, but that's for another thread.  

[tallslenderguy]

17 hours ago, hntnhole said:

It seems the President needs to acquire a dictionary; he seems not to know the definition of "obliterated".  Reports subsequent to that bombing campaign suggest something well short of "obliteration".  

 

The following is off the cuff, and not well thought out...

The middle east seems one big grudge fest to me, an ancient Hatfield/McCoy feud.  So many play the long game when it comes to revenge. From Trumps mouth to their ears: "nobody knows what i'm going to do,"  which often seems the concerns the world has with certain other guys in charge of means to destroy.  To me it feels like, with Trump, the US has taken the route of joining the bully dictators in the world, sort of "if you can't beat em, join em" approach (e.g. Putin, Kim Jong Un,,  Xi Jinping, Khamenei, Netanyahu, etc.).  The double entendre "bully pulpit" comes to mind, considering Trumps methods; ruling by coercion, force, fear. 

i don't believe those kinds of rulers are good for the long term stability of the world and that the world would be better off without them, but there is no doubt that that type represents a large portion of world leaders. Short term, i can see Khamenei fearing Trump enough to capitulate... short term. But these guys all seem cut from the same cloth to me, i don't see any of them actually agreeing to long term peaceful terms. It seems to me that each of them wants to be "first," that they do not want to coexist on more level or balanced terms. 

[PozBearWI]

To some extent, maybe our challenge is recognizing where the insane genius gets his power?  When I allow it to happen, this whole shit show is exhausting.  I thought the purpose of electing representatives is that they would, actually, represent us.  But they don't.  

Take this big bastardly bill...  Much of this takes effect after the 2026 elections.  So whatever happens in the lives of constituents won't be felt until the current fktards are voted out of office.  And then the public will start to experience the shit show, get pissed off at those then in office and vote them out.  Everything they do in DC should be able to be digested, summarized and recounted by Walter Cronkite.  But now we have a million voices often saying completely different things.  Some fact bases and a lot BS based.  

It feels like we need fact checkers to check the fact checkers to check the "media" and help us slough off the crap to help us focus...

[tallslenderguy]

1 hour ago, PozBearWI said:

To some extent, maybe our challenge is recognizing where the insane genius gets his power?  When I allow it to happen, this whole shit show is exhausting.  I thought the purpose of electing representatives is that they would, actually, represent us.  But they don't.  

Take this big bastardly bill...  Much of this takes effect after the 2026 elections.  So whatever happens in the lives of constituents won't be felt until the current fktards are voted out of office.  And then the public will start to experience the shit show, get pissed off at those then in office and vote them out.  Everything they do in DC should be able to be digested, summarized and recounted by Walter Cronkite.  But now we have a million voices often saying completely different things.  Some fact bases and a lot BS based.  

It feels like we need fact checkers to check the fact checkers to check the "media" and help us slough off the crap to help us focus...

So true. If it's so "beautiful," why wait to reveal the results till after you're long gone?  Making tax cuts permanent to those who can afford to pay for the wall and dome (in some cases, the ones who will benefit financially from their building), while throwing a token temporary bone to the waiters by not taxing tips. 

My guess is you did not "allow this to happen."  Elections are not in the hands of any one individual.  We get two selections, but who among us would have actually chosen either of those selections?  Professional politicians on all sides know how to work the system, and each has their base to whom they pander. And of course, it takes money to pull all of that off, so money (and those who have lots of it) play a huge part on who we end up getting to select from. i think the majority of Americans are not at one extreme end or the other... that even many total bottoms occasionally find their cock in an ass.  The election winners definitely pander to their base, but can only win if they sway the what i believe is the majority middle. Those who espouse some of the ideals from both camps.

For example, i don't think most Americans have much of a clue about what is in a 1000 page bill. The stuff that gets summarized  and gets attention maybe accounts for 5%, what else is not being discussed and debated publicly?  Hell, we have senators admitting they didn't know what was in it, yet still voted for it. i don't think that is unique to this particular bill, i think it is business as usual. The debt keeps growing no matter who's in office, but where the money is spent shifts to the winners choice agenda. 

To me, it comes down to trust. i think your feeling of needing checkers to check the media and fact checkers really gets to the root of the problem: trust.  I  think most vote based on emotion and the hope that they can trust who they elect, despite decades of evidence to the contrary.  

Our country does seem to have entered a new era of extremism though. i cannot remember a time where a president could actually get away with saying "i hate democrats."  Many politicians may think it or feel it about their opponents, or an individual, but to actually say it about an entire group of people creates a stereotype and panders to the extremist element in this country. It also solidifies Trump as one of them.  He does not even attempt to represent all the people of this country.  He cannot claim to love our country when he hates god alone knows how many Americans disagree with him.  They are also America.