Is stealthing morally okay?

[blackrobe]

On 10/4/2019 at 1:00 AM, Kayne said:

I stand by my view. That's my opinion based upon the evidence and my own experience. It's a view filtered through my experiences. 

That said, we are all entitled to our views.  We ate free to disagree and I neither expect nor require anyone to change their view or behavior based upon my reading of the evidence.

If the shoemfits , wear it. 

Calling it your "view" is a way of saying it's your "belief". Because both are disjoint from any idea of logic or facts or proof, it makes it a perfect defense for a nonsense claim like the one you are asserting. Psychopaths make up 1% of the general population, and to assert that all gay men who are bareback bottoms are psychopaths is wholly without any statistical or even basic anecdotal foundation. The last time people claimed a link between homosexuality and psychopathy in research was in the 1940s and 1950s and that was because someone created the nonsense term of "sexual psychopaths" for homosexuals with the intent to reinforce that all homosexuals were mentally ill without any scientific basis. 

Please cite the peer reviewed studies that support your assertion. Remember, what can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

[Kayne]

 Not all sociopaths, or people with ASPD are criminals. 

Many not them are quite successful, are "valued" members of their respective communities, and don't have criminal records. Won't be Idea that Sociopathy is rare. Is laughable. If you look behind bars or use that as a yard stick to measure who is and who is not Yor results are going to be wrong. 

 

I'm not asking anyone to accept my case. Its my view and I stated it. Ultimatelynwe're all adults here. If you choose the behavior (barebacking) knowing the risks either as a top or.bottom, you choose the consequences. Poor impulse control and self destructive behavior are indicators of sociopathy (ASPD) saynwhat you like, those things do not  change. As for me, I'm done with the conversation.  This is my last word on this subject 

[BlazeJP]

On 9/27/2019 at 2:43 AM, Kayne said:

You gotta be a sociopath to take anon loads in this day and age period  

Well, it's an opinion.

[Brain&Brawn]

7 hours ago, BlazeJP said:

Well, it's an opinion.

Yeah and contrary to what that passive aggressive guy keeps saying, there is a difference between opinion and fact. 

[Brain&Brawn]

On 10/9/2019 at 8:50 AM, Kayne said:

Poor impulse control and self destructive behavior are indicators of sociopathy

Nope. 

[Pozlover1]

The terms “psychopath” and “sociopath” have clear definitions, like most car parts. Self destructive is not one of the things currently mentioned, although subconsciously they might punish themselves because of guilt.   
This is a level of understanding that I can’t find in the material available to the general public, but might be well known among the few true experts in the behavioral sciences.  

[ronnie4u]

WOW !    Difficult Question to think about it !  I could see this idea - situation could get messy ! It could be Less respect for the receiver but hopefully the right action would be done - let him suck you off !

[Guest CuriousDallas]

As someone who has been stealthed more than a few times I can say that yeah, it is morally wrong, and I do feel violated, but then again too it’s not like I didn’t play a part as well. I didn’t ask their status. I didn’t agree to bareback, hell, I wanted it. Now if a guy lies about their status that’s on them, but in most cases the bottom could have done things to stop it. That’s not blaming the victim but acknowledging they played a part too. Pozlover1 has a point that the stealther is a self-destructive person. They aren’t in a good place. They’re angry about what happened to them and this is a way to get even with society at large. And it’s easy to justify when bottoms are being dumb and not asking statuses and agreeing to take loads bare even if they’re not on Prep. I’ve gotten to know some of the guys who stealthed me and they admitted how easy it is to stealth a guy and trust me...I know! I get their argument...if a guy is dumb enough to let them stealth them then they’re probably going to get pozzed sooner or later...if not by them then by someone else. 

[bbmarried]

In my own opinion, stealthing is not only immoral, it's also illegal in most states, for good reason. Besides, there's not much reason for it since most men will submit anyway.

[Guest Upstateguy518]

This happened earlier today. I decided to meet with a guy who only fucked raw. He was married to a woman and condoms would be suspicious. He said he'd pull out. I lubed myself up, a few mins later he pulled out and "came" on my back. Even going as far to saying he was cumming on my back and I could tell he didn't because I felt nothing.

And to be honest, I didn't care. Not that I wanted to get bred, it was actually my first time having a guy cum inside me, but I knew the risks and figured if he was gonna do it, he was gonna do it.

[ErosWired]

On 10/16/2019 at 6:36 AM, CuriousDallas said:

 I get their argument...if a guy is dumb enough to let them stealth them then they’re probably going to get pozzed sooner or later...if not by them then by someone else. 

Except that their argument isn’t a valid defense for potentially infecting another person with a disease with malice aforethought. To argue that they know the victim is “dumb enough” simply marks them as callous and predatory for taking advantage of someone who’s vulnerable.

To speculate that the victim is “probably” going to get pozzed eventually does not excuse a decision to then increase the likelihood of that happening by doing it themselves - they can’t see the future and have no way of knowing whether the victim would otherwise beat the odds if ethically-challenged scum like them didn’t intervene.

If a stealther is, as you suggest, angry about being pozzed and wants to get even with the whole world by infecting other people so they have to be as miserable as him, that is all on him - his victims are in no way to blame for his maladjustment.

But victim-blaming in stealthing is no different than victim-blaming in rape (and indeed, both are sexual assaults). You have a perpetrator guilty of wrongdoing, and a person upon whom that harm is committed. The offense is not accidental, but intentional. Had the perpetrator not made a conscious choice to take advantage of available circumstances to do the wrongful act, the harm would not have occurred. What the victim may or may not have said, worn, wanted, done, or not done is immaterial - at every instant the perpetrator has the choice to refrain from wrongdoing. At no point does the victim force the perpetrator’s action, regardless of how much the victim’s actions may temp him. In the end, the choice of wrong is the perpetrator’s alone.

Was I pozzed by stealth? No idea. Maybe the guy knew his status, maybe he didn’t. What I do know is that my reaction to my fate isn’t to go out seeding disease into every vulnerable ass I can find - it’s to make double-damn-sure I’m safe for play. Nobody’s going to get pozzed because they played with me, and I am determined I will not give the Enemy Virus a chance to use my body to hurt anyone else. If that’s how one person can deal with nearly dying of AIDS, why should anyone have any tolerance for a stealther?

Edited October 20, 2019 by ErosWired

[hornycumslut91]

As someone who was stealthed before, I'm going to say fuck no. It's one thing if you're with a bug chaser who's into it and begs you to knock him up. It's another to ruin someone's life and infect them without their permission. And if you think stealthing is cool, then you're a sociopath.

[hungry_hole]

On 10/20/2019 at 11:09 PM, hornycumslut91 said:

As someone who was stealthed before, I'm going to say fuck no. It's one thing if you're with a bug chaser who's into it and begs you to knock him up. It's another to ruin someone's life and infect them without their permission. And if you think stealthing is cool, then you're a sociopath.

You cannot paint all stealthing situations with the same brush and some stealthers don't qualify as sociopaths.

In my opinion, which I've expressed here before, anonymous stealthing at a bathhouse or in a darkroom is totally OK. These places are high-risk places and a bottom has to be very naive to believe the HIV status from some random horny guy who wants to breed him in one of these places. It's just common sense. First, why would anybody believe that a bottom who offers his hole to anonymous cocks at a bathhouse is HIV negative. Second, part of the fun of these places being able to live fantasies and for some fucking and breeding a negative hole is a huge turn-on.  Third, in the topic of fantasies, some HIV+ bottoms play the game of being HIV-neg, just another fetish. I have a sign that I use that says "HIV- HOLE" and sometimes hang it on the sling at the bathhouse. A few weeks ago a guy came into my room, he fucked me and bred my hole. He said "You'll have to change your sign" and left.

In any other circumstances I would agree that stealthing is not OK, even when meeting through Grindr or other Apps. Don't paint all stealthings with the same brush.

 

[JamesTheBBJedi]

I know I’m coming into this obviously deep conversation a little late - but I wanted to chime in, give my “opinions”, and try to add to the discussion.  Fair warning - this is a long post, so read if you have the time, or don’t, the choice is yours.

Do I think stealthing is “morally ok”?  Short answer: no.  

I will counter that however, by admitting that I can not make a blanket statement and declare that “all guys (Poz or not) who choose to stealth a bottom” are Sociopaths, that would be too broad, overreaching, and inaccurate for lack of knowledge of motive and intent... BUT sociopaths would in-fact be candidates to stealth breed another person (man or woman). I will qualify that by saying that there is a portion of ownership, for lack of a better word, on both parties when it comes to what does and does not happen when having sex with another man whom their status is not a known quantity.  Sure, I enjoy bareback very much, and I’ve made the conscious choice to take PrEP (Truvada) for peace of mind and as a backup should I be with somebody who isn’t truthful about their negative or undetectable status and they decide to pull a stealth operation on me.  That said though I do assume the risk that Truvada’s efficacy is only 92% give or take, and that I may end up Poz eventually anyway. And we all know there are other inherent risks of having bareback sex which we don’t need to go into (and add to the already substantial length of my “rant”).

So why would sociopaths be considered as potential stealthers?  Easy, see the hard and fast, factual and scientifically supported definition and profile of sociopaths below...

Profile of the Sociopath:

• Superficial Charm 
• Manipulative - They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible  seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used.
• Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." 
• Pathological Lying - Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests. 
• Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt - Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. 
• Shallow Emotions 
• Incapacity for Love 
• Need for Stimulation - Living on the edge. Promiscuity and gambling are common. 
• Callousness/Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. 
• Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature - no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. 
• Irresponsibility/Unreliability 
• Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed. 
• Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity 
  Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexually acting out.
• Parasitic Lifestyle. 
• Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility 
  Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

[ErosWired]

The word stealth derives from Old English steal + th meaning “theft”. More broadly, it denotes slyness or deception. In any context, it expresses the idea of taking some action without the consent of the one acted upon.

All you guys equivocating about how stealthing is sometimes wrong but sometimes okay - it’s always done without the consent of the person being stealthed, or it isn’t - by definition - stealthing. And since it’s done without consent, it’s sexual assault. You can’t paint it any other color. You don’t get to say a victim was ‘asking for it’ by putting himself in a situation where he might get pozzed, or entering a darkroom, or for taking anon loads, or for being naïve, or any of that other ridiculous victim-blaming shit, because nobody forces a stealther to stealth - that choice is 100% his own.

Stealth means theft - the theft of another person’s right to refuse, and the possible theft of his health. It’s wrong 100% of the time, in every circumstance.

 I would even go so far as to say that in my  view a superior Top would never think of stealthing - he would consider it beneath him, something only done by lesser men. It smacks of the behavior of intimidated males in a pack who have been denied reproductive rights by an Alpha male, surreptitiously slipping in to inseminate a bitch on the sly; even if successful, it still imparts no honor to the one who does it.