Is stealthing morally okay?

[Pozlover1]

Re: The movie “Daybreak”, now on Netflix.

 I thought it was brand new. It was a 1993, pre-meds sci fi about “some disease” with Government chasing them down, tattooing a red “P” on their chest and locking them up. Spoiler alert:   becoming Positive for love is touched on.
To me, the release of this obscure (banned?) film right now by Netflix indicates that some people are aware of the current gifting/chasing/stealthing phenom and are warning us of a possible - and likely imminent - reality. 
    Thank you, illegal aliens, for diverting our useless gooberment’s attention. Without you we might have  been 2016’s scapegoat du jour. 

[negchaserlooking]

In reality no and I am sure very illegal here in Oz. But it does make bloody good "fictional" reading.

[hungry_hole]

11 hours ago, ErosWired said:

Good advice - except that what it means is that anyone negative who wants to stay that way should stay condomed up, never have spontaneous sex, and never go to any place where men have public sex because stealthing is an expected thing.

They can have spontaneous sex, meet in Grindr and agree to have sex. But if they expect to bareback they must first discuss their situation regarding STI testing and appear to each other as two human beings. But cumdumps wannabe  who at the bathhouse want to be just a "hole" cannot expect to be treated with the regular social rules that include respecting consent.

11 hours ago, ErosWired said:

Would you swim in a public pool if it were known that some individuals were known to jump in and then intentionally open up vials of E. coli into the water? Of course not - those persons would be expelled and banned from the pool (and likely arrested). You wouldn’t just say, “Well, sometimes these guys show up, so if you don’t want to get sick, just don’t come to the public pool.”

No, I wouldn't but neither would I fuck bareback at a bathhouse if I wanted to stay HIV-negative.

From a legal standpoint, HIV+ guys who stealth can be charged and face the law but not in anonymous sex situations: "Judge, I was in my room at the bathhouse offering my hole for anon loads and this guy bred my hole knowing he was HIV+". In anon sex names and addresses are unknown and most likely you'll never see them again. Not enough information for a legal case.

Do you wanna stay HIV-negative? Go on PrEP or Avoid high-risk situations, especially anon sex.

[tallslenderguy]

13 hours ago, Pozlover1 said:

Re: The movie “Daybreak”, now on Netflix.

 I thought it was brand new. It was a 1993, pre-meds sci fi about “some disease” with Government chasing them down, tattooing a red “P” on their chest and locking them up. Spoiler alert:   becoming Positive for love is touched on.
To me, the release of this obscure (banned?) film right now by Netflix indicates that some people are aware of the current gifting/chasing/stealthing phenom and are warning us of a possible - and likely imminent - reality. 
    Thank you, illegal aliens, for diverting our useless gooberment’s attention. Without you we might have  been 2016’s scapegoat du jour. 

i just finished binge watching "Daybreak" on Netflix. What i saw is indeed a new series, not a 'movie"?  i suspect there will be seasons to follow, google says so.  I googled and see there was a 1993 movie, as you describe (haven't seen it), but i don't think this series is related or a remake.

There is a gay couple, but i missed any reference to "becoming positive for love?"  (not saying it wasn't there, but if it was, i missed it).  

It's a comedy-drama, satire, and the premise of the series is nuclear/biological warfare happens and all of the adults are altered, animals mutate and teens rule the world (well, Glendale CA anyway).  It struck me as a sort of Lord of the Flies like in places.  

i confess i liked it, but at the same time have my ongoing concern that white guys in their 40's are doing most of the creating and producing, i.e., writing the scripts for everyone else-including teens.  i continue to wonder how much modern media has effected social development? Kids watch this stuff and emulate attitudes, etc..  If kids wrote their own parts, they'd be different, as would womens parts, gays, people of color, etc., etc., etc..  i always check who the writers and producers are on stuff, it's amazing how much is middle aged white guys. Not saying "middle aged white guys" is bad, but it's curious to me how much is written and produced portraying everyone else without necessarily having their perspective.  

Now to contradict myself, there's some pretty fun social stances/norms being challenged in the series... i liked it.

[tallslenderguy]

14 hours ago, ErosWired said:

Good advice - except that what it means is that anyone negative who wants to stay that way should stay condomed up, never have spontaneous sex, and never go to any place where men have public sex because stealthing is an expected thing.

But it shouldn’t be, and it doesn’t have to be. It persists because there are men - and your earlier post in this thread places you among them - that accept, legitimize, and justify stealthing as a practice, even if only under certain circumstances. Stealthing will continue its insidious presence among us until we as a community adopt a united stance that it is unacceptable and spurn those who commit it. Only then will it cease.

Would you swim in a public pool if it were known that some individuals were known to jump in and then intentionally open up vials of E. coli into the water? Of course not - those persons would be expelled and banned from the pool (and likely arrested). You wouldn’t just say, “Well, sometimes these guys show up, so if you don’t want to get sick, just don’t come to the public pool.”

The advice above, while sound, places all the burden of mitigating the problem of stealthing on the potential victims, and makes no effort to address the problem at its malicious root.

This makes me think of cigarettes and how smoking was socially stigmatized.  Stigmatization was a definite part of reducing the number of people who smoke. It's not a complete comparison, because smoking was glamorized and promoted in the media and the tobacco industry for decades. Smoking was a mainstream norm where stealthing remains a sub sub sub cultural practice. 

i imagine a group of guys who fantasize about stealthing, but would never do it because they do not deem it "morally okay."  i think what we are left with are a very small group of guys who would stealth (i.e., purposely try and infect another with HIV without their knowledge or permission) regardless of the moral wrongness of what they are doing.  i think there will always be sociopaths, so i don't think stealthing will ever "cease," though i think we can further reduce the practice? 

i don't think it's right or morally acceptable, and i accept the idea of stigmatizing the actual  practice of stealthing (which is just calling it what it is). i do think it's unrealistic to expect we will ever be safe by controlling people who would ignore our right to choose. i'm grateful for PrEP and ART and glad i can make choices that can protect me against such people.

[ErosWired]

12 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

 i think what we are left with are a very small group of guys who would stealth (i.e., purposely try and infect another with HIV without their knowledge or permission) regardless of the moral wrongness of what they are doing.  i think there will always be sociopaths, so i don't think stealthing will ever "cease," though i think we can further reduce the practice? 

There are men posting in this very thread about how they’ve stealthed other guys. I would like to believe they’re not all sociopaths, but rather, haven’t thought it through, or don’t realize that most of their peers here consider it an especially dick move. I’d like to think that such guys might be willing to rethink their stand on stealthing - and their intent to stealth in future - based on our community discussion here. 

Maybe I’m being naïve. I do that sometimes (I even let guys I totally do not know push their penis into my asshole, if you can believe that). But I still believe that the only way we make any headway in getting rid of this kind of behavior and making bareback sex safer for everyone is by speaking out about what is acceptable and what isn’t.

Quit fetishizing it as well, for fucksake. When some fucker talks about stealthing someone, don’t encourage it by saying something ridiculous like “That’s hot”. No, it isn’t, it’s sinister as fuck, and what’s the matter with him that he would do that to someone? (By the way, my sexual past is chock-full of experiences where sick bastards did all manner of sick sexual shit to me as a submissive both in and out of bondage, so it’s not Polyanna talking here.) Let’s just decide as a subculture that it’s not something that we accept, and make it known.

Edited October 27, 2019 by ErosWired

[tallslenderguy]

9 minutes ago, ErosWired said:

 

Maybe I’m being naïve. I do that sometimes (I even let guys I totally do not know push their penis into my asshole, if you can believe that). But I still believe that the only way we make any headway in getting rid of this kind of behavior and making bareback sex safer for everyone is by speaking out about what is acceptable and what isn’t.

 

love you and i don't think you're naive. i applaud your efforts and,  between you and me, i let strangers push their penis into my asshole too. 

[Guest BritBottom]

9 hours ago, ErosWired said:

There are men posting in this very thread about how they’ve stealthed other guys. I would like to believe they’re not all sociopaths, but rather, haven’t thought it through, or don’t realize that most of their peers here consider it an especially dick move. I’d like to think that such guys might be willing to rethink their stand on stealthing - and their intent to stealth in future - based on our community discussion here. 

Maybe I’m being naïve. I do that sometimes (I even let guys I totally do not know push their penis into my asshole, if you can believe that). But I still believe that the only way we make any headway in getting rid of this kind of behavior and making bareback sex safer for everyone is by speaking out about what is acceptable and what isn’t.

Quit fetishizing it as well, for fucksake. When some fucker talks about stealthing someone, don’t encourage it by saying something ridiculous like “That’s hot”. No, it isn’t, it’s sinister as fuck, and what’s the matter with him that he would do that to someone? (By the way, my sexual past is chock-full of experiences where sick bastards did all manner of sick sexual shit to me as a submissive both in and out of bondage, so it’s not Polyanna talking here.) Let’s just decide as a subculture that it’s not something that we accept, and make it known.

 I’ll admit to be being naive.  I know I take a risk with every stranger that fucks me.  I have only one agenda and that is to make every fuck the best it can be for both of us.  All I ask are that tops are frank and honest about what they want from me, once I know that, if I’m still agreeable, I’ll willingly and actively submit to be the best little bitch he’s ever had and any consequences are by my choice.

Compared with some guys on here, I know my preferences are pretty simplistic and vanilla, I decide who fucks me and only want consensual raw uncomplicated senseless fucks. I don’t care if it’s sometimes ruthless and hard or even, to a degree, painful – simply two men getting what they need from each other.  Guys with agenda’s or a ‘mission’ can find plenty of others who’ll play along.

The word ‘sinister’ describes the situation perfectly, the subject isn’t about sex, it about callous power, abuse of others and their trust. How those who promote the concept can imagine that they could be trusted in any aspect of life escapes me. Ultimately it simply demonstrates a weakness in the perpetrator. I accept it’s a naive and idealistic view to some but, whatever the motivation I find stealthing and those who do it contemptible.

[hungry_hole]

Instead of just talking about stealthing, here is a real example of an ANON stealthing situation, where a cock is fucking a hole. These are not two people who want their consent to be respected.

[think before following links] https://www.xtube.com/video-watch/gloryhole-stealth-40921301

If you want to be treated as a person you don't offer your hole through a gloryhole. 

[chargedodger]

I understand stealthing as a kind of hunting on the part of a poz top who may not disclose.In today's era of prep,pep and post conversion treatment perhaps stealthing is not the criminal act it was in the past as the responsibility has been more heavily lain upon the btm accepting annonymous loads bareback.Is it okay?No...but as a neg guy I DO find it HOT.:)

[tallslenderguy]

3 hours ago, hungry_hole said:

Instead of just talking about stealthing, here is a real example of an ANON stealthing situation, where a cock is fucking a hole. These are not two people who want their consent to be respected.

[think before following links] [think before following links] https://www.xtube.com/video-watch/gloryhole-stealth-40921301

If you want to be treated as a person you don't offer your hole through a gloryhole. 

i get your feelings, but i don't think anyone can unequivicolly draw the conclusion that "these are not two people who want their consent to be respected."  There's so much we don't know about this. E.g, was the Top poz and wanting to try and poz the bottom or did He just not want to wear a condom?  The bottom put a condom on the Tops cock before offering his ass.  There are lots of people who engage in anonymous glory hole sex for a variety of reasons, one is being DL.  To me, the bottom putting a condom on the cock of the Top sent a pretty clear message that he wanted to be fucked through the GH by a Top with a condom on.

 i think it's naive, but i don't think the bottom is necessarily asking for his consent to be disrespected.  It can be hard for some of us (me) who are experienced sluts to understand a shy guy who insists on condoms at a place like an ABS, or any place for that matter, but they do exist. 

i think what is generally in question here is whether it's moral to cum in a guy against his consent or expressed wishes. i'd say no. i think it's immoral to violate another persons volition no matter how 'stupid' one may think that person is.  And really, isn't the primary point behind stealth (i,e., purposely trying to poz a bottom against their will) to lie and deceive the bottom? There are apparently plenty of bottoms willing to take raw loads no questions asked, it's not like open asses are in short supply. Stealthing as we're talking about it here is about purposeful deceit and harm. 

[tallslenderguy]

i want to clarify that i don't want to pretend some sort of moral supeirority here. The question is: "Is stealthing morally okay?" 

ErosWired commented:  "I would like to believe they’re not all sociopaths, but rather, haven’t thought it through, or don’t realize that most of their peers here consider it an especially dick move. I’d like to think that such guys might be willing to rethink their stand on stealthing - and their intent to stealth in future - based on our community discussion here. "  

i think Eros is right.  i confess there have been a few times (three that i can remember)  where a guy has offered me his cock through a GH with a condom on it and i have purposely sucked it (something i would never do) just so i could try and bite a hole in the condom. my intent has never been to poz anyone (i'm undetectable).  my sole intent was to get his cum inside of me. Even still, i've stopped doing that.  i think it's wrong, a violation of his will. Instead, i just tell them i don't do condoms and if they refuse, that's their prerogative.  

i've decided i'd rather go without than to violate someone else will.  It doesn't change me and what i like. i still want every guy to fuck me and inseminate me, but not at the cost of violating His will.  And i think that's a good social standard. i don't have a chaser or gifted fetish, but i do understand having fetishes, i've got plenty of them.  To me, "morality" draws a line at violating another persons wishes or volition. That can get murky in a world of D/s, but not impossibly so, so that's where i land on this.

i love this group and love that we can have these discussions. i don't feel morally superior to anyone.

Edited October 27, 2019 by tallslenderguy

[ErosWired]

7 hours ago, hungry_hole said:

If you want to be treated as a person you don't offer your hole through a gloryhole. 

A positive Top with a detectable HIV viral load or an untreated STD steps up to a gloryhole. He finds a cunt waiting on the other side. At this point, nothing is going to happen that the Top does not personally, actively choose to do. 

He knows his condition and knows he has the capacity to transfer his condition to the guy on the other side of that hole simply by inserting his cock through it and into the ass that’s waiting. He positively knows this to be true. The guy on the other side knows only that such a thing is possible, if he’s been educated about the risks, and considered them - but he could be naïve and unaware.

 If no infectious Top that evening chooses to use that ass through that hole, the guy on the other side will go home unharmed.

But not this time.

The Top standing on this side is a stealther. He holds other human beings in contempt if they somehow don’t measure up to his standards, and so to him it’s absolutely okay to poz up their dirty worthless cunts - somebody’s going to do it, so it might as well be him. In fact, it’s better than okay, because this dumb, cumslut piece of human trash is sitting there with his bitch twat pressed up against the GH begging for it!

So he pulls out his cock and fucks the guy on the other side he can’t even see, and ejaculates his infected fluids into the other man. He pulls out and walks away with a smirk - he just scored another one.

Now - I defy any of you to defend this Top and the decision he made, or to explain some way in which the bottom was actually responsible for that Top’s decision. I’ll be waiting for someone to explain how the bottom’s behavior made him less a human being than the Top, or more deserving of having his body wracked with disease. I’ll be waiting for someone to provide a convincing argument that a bottom’s ability to take protective medications makes it acceptable for any Top to attempt to give him a disease. I’ll be waiting to hear how the Top was enacting some primal, instinctual ritual, or demonstrating his dominance, or really any nonsensical justifying shit I can laugh to scorn.

Do I feel morally superior to anyone else? No. But some things are simply wrong by any ethical, logical standard, and this is one of them. 

[find91]

Steathing is a form or rape. No consent was given.

People need to stop conflating rape/ steal thing with rape play or stealth play. That work play makes a big difference. It turns the act from a crime to a game. The difference between the two is with normal stealthing absolutely no consent, not even prior consent was given. While in rape play / stealth play, prior consent was given and usually the bottom can stop the action at anytime. 

[MykBruce]

TOP or BOTTOM  should be able to stop the play at ANYTIME!      We all have good and bad experience, let's be honest and respectfull.

For the alien part: nice fiction... I don't live in a fictional world...