I think I'm falling for someone

[Alchemist]

You're right about this guys. I do have some lack of solid information but i got some yesterday. He slept at my place, we went to a theatre and had a dinner together. We had some good time together. He told me he would marry by the end of July, but he feels like he shouldn't. Actually he told me he's not into marriage and that he asked her to marry bcz he felt bad for her. That could be a greek thing bcz some people may think that if u respect a woman uhave to marry her otherwise you disprect her? or sth like that. She also wants a kid but he doesnt feel into it. I told him that since he is in a good age to be a father (for greece's standards its around 30+), he has a good job, she has a job .. well the circumstances favor that. I told him that he would never be ready, but he could do it. But still he's not into it. He asked me if a had gf and i said no. So he asked me if i have sex and I said no again (which is true). I was trying to tell him that im gay but i didnt feel sure. He also hugged me when i told him sth about my family.

[Guest]

isn't it time to move this thread to a fiction-part of bz?

[tallslenderguy]

3 hours ago, Alchemist said:

You're right about this guys. I do have some lack of solid information but i got some yesterday. He slept at my place, we went to a theatre and had a dinner together. We had some good time together. He told me he would marry by the end of July, but he feels like he shouldn't. Actually he told me he's not into marriage and that he asked her to marry bcz he felt bad for her. That could be a greek thing bcz some people may think that if u respect a woman uhave to marry her otherwise you disprect her? or sth like that. She also wants a kid but he doesnt feel into it. I told him that since he is in a good age to be a father (for greece's standards its around 30+), he has a good job, she has a job .. well the circumstances favor that. I told him that he would never be ready, but he could do it. But still he's not into it. He asked me if a had gf and i said no. So he asked me if i have sex and I said no again (which is true). I was trying to tell him that im gay but i didnt feel sure. He also hugged me when i told him sth about my family.

Again, want to lead with qualifying how speculative this discussion is overall. Not to suggest i think that is good or bad, just trying to put this in context.  i believe where things can get dicey is when speculation is treated like knowledge or fact. 

That said.

my read is part of the challenge here is culture and cultural differences. Two cultures, Greek, and the Greek medical culture, and more specifically the particular culture of the hospital where you work. For instance, the culture of the former hospital where i worked was different from the one where i work now. It was in a different state Virginia then vs Oregon now. Both were teaching hospitals, which makes a big difference.  One was a 860 bed hospital, the other a 250 bed hospital. Then you mention a larger culture of religion, i am guessing Greek Orthodox?, that has deep and old roots and likely has lots of influence still.  You mention in another post considering coming back to the US because of the cultural differences and imply you feel freer to be gay, who you are, in the US? 

The point is, we do not have your perspective. my feeling when i read your posts is there is a sort of cat and mouse game going on between you and this 'friend.' And that you are switching roles. I.e., sometimes he is the cat and you the mouse, sometimes you are the cat and he the mouse.  

This most recent get together, he seems to be fishing telling you that he will marry by the end of July (almost a year away), then tells you "he shouldn't,"  and that he is "not into marriage" and he "feels bad for her."  To me, this sounds like fishing, and i could be wrong and reading this into this, but to me it reads like he wants you to give him a reason why he should not marry, Instead, you told him he should get married lol. To me, this would have been a good opportunity to say something like: "i'm not into marriage either" and "feeling sorry for her is not a good reason to get married."  You are sending mixed signals. To me, he gave you opportunities to agree with him, and instead you give him arguments why he should marry lol. If he is gay and as nervous as you are and trying to figure out if you are gay, you didn't take the bait. Instead, you gave him reasons to still be afraid of telling you, if he happens to be gay or bi. 

my feeling is you may both be attracted to each other and both of you are afraid to be the first one to tell the other one they are attracted. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be. i still think you need to come out to this guy, but not at the same time you tell him you are attracted to him.

i am just speculating, but It really seems to me you are both attracted to each other and that he is gay or bi and attracted to you, but both of you are afraid to tell the other?  i think you need to find a way to tell him you are gay and it's getting harder for me to believe he doesn't already suspect or hope that you are gay. idk  

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by tallslenderguy

[Alchemist]

22 minutes ago, tallslenderguy said:

Again, want to lead with qualifying how speculative this discussion is overall. Not to suggest i think that is good or bad, just trying to put this in context.  i believe where things can get dicey is when speculation is treated like knowledge or fact. 

That said.

my read is part of the challenge here is culture and cultural differences. Two cultures, Greek, and the Greek medical culture, and more specifically the particular culture of the hospital where you work. For instance, the culture of the former hospital where i worked was different from the one where i work now. It was in a different state Virginia then vs Oregon now. Both were teaching hospitals, which makes a big difference.  One was a 860 bed hospital, the other a 250 bed hospital. Then you mention a larger culture of religion, i am guessing Greek Orthodox?, that has deep and old roots and likely has lots of influence still.  You mention in another post considering coming back to the US because of the cultural differences and imply you feel freer to be gay, who you are, in the US? 

The point is, we do not have your perspective. my feeling when i read your posts is there is a sort of cat and mouse game going on between you and this 'friend.' And that you are switching roles. I.e., sometimes he is the cat and you the mouse, sometimes you are the cat and he the mouse.  

This most recent get together, he seems to be fishing telling you that he will marry by the end of July (almost a year away), then tells you "he shouldn't,"  and that he is "not into marriage" and he "feels bad for her."  To me, this sounds like fishing, and i could be wrong and reading this into this, but to me it reads like he wants you to give him a reason why he should not marry, Instead, you told him he should get married lol. To me, this would have been a good opportunity to say something like: "i'm not into marriage either" and "feeling sorry for her is not a good reason to get married."  You are sending mixed signals. To me, he gave you opportunities to agree with him, and instead you give him arguments why he should marry lol. If he is gay and as nervous as you are and trying to figure out if you are gay, you didn't take the bait. Instead, you gave him reasons to still be afraid of telling you, if he happens to be gay or bi. 

my feeling is you may both be attracted to each other and both of you are afraid to be the first one to tell the other one they are attracted. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be. i still think you need to come out to this guy, but not at the same time you tell him you are attracted to him.

i am just speculating, but It really seems to me you are both attracted to each other and that he is gay or bi and attracted to you, but both of you are afraid to tell the other?  i think you need to find a way to tell him you are gay and it's getting harder for me to believe he doesn't already suspect or hope that you are gay. idk  

 

 

heya

That culture thing is a big deal. Even for me, I always felt more of an American than a Greek. Actually, I'm treated like an American (meaning foreigner). Part of this is because of my tiny American accent when talking in Greek. I work in a big university hospital (1000 beds. Small detail: for hospital beds we say hospital + the ancient greek word for bed, not the modern one). So I don't know how a small one would feel but I have to tell u this; christianity is a must. All hospitals have a small temple (even medical school has its own and dental school next to it has also its own). There is a weird blend of different kind of people there. I mean there are obviously gay people who are part of it and face no problem and people who are gay in secret (like me!). My professor (I call him "mine" cuz apart from being a residet of anaesthesiology, I'm the deputy leader of his research time) is not very okay with gay people. He would call a guy fagot behind his back and that stresses me a bit.

About me returning to the US. 1. it would feel more like being at home 2. If something bad happens let's say an assault or something I believe you can report it and have an action done. If you do that here nothjing will happen it's just a take it as it comes and stfu. 3. yeah it would be easier to be gay there.

 

I'm confused about his marriage. I'm not sure if initially he had told me we would marry by June or if someone else had told me. He was always like "oh i'm not the family guy". In my eyes, he's an almost rich, beautiful guy who has a lovely wife/girl/woman and I see no obvious reason of not having children and marrying. So I spoke my mind. He didnt tell me he doesnt love me, but as little as I know him, I think he doesn't. I mean he's okay with her, she's good looking and they get along. But maybe this is not enough. In any case i'm not thinking "oh yea drop her and take me". So I told him what i think. I'm quite a chicken to tell him i'm gay. I'm seeking for a chance to do something.. so as for the circumstances to be..ehm favorable? dunno

[tallslenderguy]

17 minutes ago, Alchemist said:

heya

That culture thing is a big deal. Even for me, I always felt more of an American than a Greek. Actually, I'm treated like an American (meaning foreigner). Part of this is because of my tiny American accent when talking in Greek. I work in a big university hospital (1000 beds. Small detail: for hospital beds we say hospital + the ancient greek word for bed, not the modern one). So I don't know how a small one would feel but I have to tell u this; christianity is a must. All hospitals have a small temple (even medical school has its own and dental school next to it has also its own). There is a weird blend of different kind of people there. I mean there are obviously gay people who are part of it and face no problem and people who are gay in secret (like me!). My professor (I call him "mine" cuz apart from being a residet of anaesthesiology, I'm the deputy leader of his research time) is not very okay with gay people. He would call a guy fagot behind his back and that stresses me a bit.

About me returning to the US. 1. it would feel more like being at home 2. If something bad happens let's say an assault or something I believe you can report it and have an action done. If you do that here nothjing will happen it's just a take it as it comes and stfu. 3. yeah it would be easier to be gay there.

 

I'm confused about his marriage. I'm not sure if initially he had told me we would marry by June or if someone else had told me. He was always like "oh i'm not the family guy". In my eyes, he's an almost rich, beautiful guy who has a lovely wife/girl/woman and I see no obvious reason of not having children and marrying. So I spoke my mind. He didnt tell me he doesnt love me, but as little as I know him, I think he doesn't. I mean he's okay with her, she's good looking and they get along. But maybe this is not enough. In any case i'm not thinking "oh yea drop her and take me". So I told him what i think. I'm quite a chicken to tell him i'm gay. I'm seeking for a chance to do something.. so as for the circumstances to be..ehm favorable? dunno

Having come from a religious culture myself, i understand how it can keep one in the closet, and i sense that where you and your friend are is that kind of culture.  From what you have written, my read is he may be gay and as afraid to be open about it as you are. 

The "Obvious reason of not having children and marrying" is him saying he "shouldn't" and "not into marriage."   Instead of you responding to him how you see it, maybe ask him why he feels he should not get married and  ask why he is not into marriage?  

[Alchemist]

39 minutes ago, tallslenderguy said:

Having come from a religious culture myself, i understand how it can keep one in the closet, and i sense that where you and your friend are is that kind of culture.  From what you have written, my read is he may be gay and as afraid to be open about it as you are. 

The "Obvious reason of not having children and marrying" is him saying he "shouldn't" and "not into marriage."   Instead of you responding to him how you see it, maybe ask him why he feels he should not get married and  ask why he is not into marriage?  

Well that thing frustrates me. I have no opinion how religious people should do their rituals, who do they have on how I live? But that's another story.

You are right about that question, i hadnt thought t that way. I know it happens but I just can't understand it. Why marry someone that you don't want? It's 2021 you don't need that much of a cover, do you? What is interesting is that he wants to visit the US with me. Although that journey will be about my returning to my hometown. See my friends again, my family (although i'm scared of meeting my father again no matter how he is). It's not a go see the sightseeings trip. I thought he was just joking but he did ask me to book tickets for us. He als told me if he stays to the states, whether Americans are racists towards Greeks. The short answer is i don't know. I never passed for a Greek so I'm not the one to tell. Plus I'm a little worried he will spent 2000$ for tickets and stuff to see something that he wont like. Greeks think that the States are the same thing from Alaska to Kansas and beyond full of skyscrapers. But my hometown doesn't have sky scrapers and it's actually a small town that will be frozen by now. Maybe he just needs to run away.

[tallslenderguy]

37 minutes ago, Alchemist said:

Well that thing frustrates me. I have no opinion how religious people should do their rituals, who do they have on how I live? But that's another story.

You are right about that question, i hadnt thought t that way. I know it happens but I just can't understand it. Why marry someone that you don't want? It's 2021 you don't need that much of a cover, do you? What is interesting is that he wants to visit the US with me. Although that journey will be about my returning to my hometown. See my friends again, my family (although i'm scared of meeting my father again no matter how he is). It's not a go see the sightseeings trip. I thought he was just joking but he did ask me to book tickets for us. He als told me if he stays to the states, whether Americans are racists towards Greeks. The short answer is i don't know. I never passed for a Greek so I'm not the one to tell. Plus I'm a little worried he will spent 2000$ for tickets and stuff to see something that he wont like. Greeks think that the States are the same thing from Alaska to Kansas and beyond full of skyscrapers. But my hometown doesn't have sky scrapers and it's actually a small town that will be frozen by now. Maybe he just needs to run away.

The Greek culture has a long history of religious culture. The Greeks were at the hub of early Christianity, for instance, eh?  Every place and country has its ethnocentricity's, and i think the ones that are the most frustrating or confusing are the ones we are not aware of. While you may "...have no opinion on how religious people should do their rituals,"  it's part of the culture you live in and it affects you and how you feel and think. 

You are afraid to be who you are living where you are. You were born in a different country, so you have extra cultural influence, yet you are still afraid to be openly gay for probably many known and unknown reasons. Fear is an emotional response, it's not rational, and it is governing an important part of your life, no? It seems reasonable to me to at least suspect that your friend is going to have similar fears, affecting and governing him. If he is sexually and/or romantically attracted to you,  he is just as afraid of being open about that as you are... maybe more, maybe less. It seems revealing to me that even though you like this guy and are feeling romantic towards him, that even when he gave you several opportunities to support alternative ways of living (i.e., by telling you he is not into marriage, etc.) you supported cultural tradition instead of who and how you feel. You encouraged him to do the culturally acceptable thing and get married and have kids. Even though you have romantic feelings for this guy, you chose culture over your self... and maybe over his self as well? You may very well be two gay guys struggling to accept and be your self in a less than gay friendly culture.

[tallslenderguy]

The more i think about this, the more i think there is a bigger picture that is in play here and needs to be considered. 

If a guy likes a woman, he doesn't have to fear social disdain for liking women. He doesn't have to fear that the woman will get angry and reject him because he likes women and how dare he think that she could possibly be interested in men, in him. 

We don't think about it, but homophobia is alive and well. AlChemist has a professor, someone he works with and may even answer too who is openly homophobic, openly using pejorative labels when speaking about a gay person. It may be hard to relate to such deeply entrenched homophobia if one has always lived in a more progressive culture, so it's all to easy to side with the heteronormative response of 'man up,' but it isn't that simple. It takes a long time and a lot of money to become a doctor, establish a reputation that can be threatened by simply being honest and open. 

To me, the bigger picture is, it really sucks that you live in an environment where you have legitimate reason to be afraid. Where the authorities would not protect you if there was an assault on you because you are gay, where you fear openness because many of those you work with will treat you as less than, or worse, if they know you are gay. 

 

[Alchemist]

23 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

The Greek culture has a long history of religious culture. The Greeks were at the hub of early Christianity, for instance, eh?  Every place and country has its ethnocentricity's, and i think the ones that are the most frustrating or confusing are the ones we are not aware of. While you may "...have no opinion on how religious people should do their rituals,"  it's part of the culture you live in and it affects you and how you feel and think. 

You are afraid to be who you are living where you are. You were born in a different country, so you have extra cultural influence, yet you are still afraid to be openly gay for probably many known and unknown reasons. Fear is an emotional response, it's not rational, and it is governing an important part of your life, no? It seems reasonable to me to at least suspect that your friend is going to have similar fears, affecting and governing him. If he is sexually and/or romantically attracted to you,  he is just as afraid of being open about that as you are... maybe more, maybe less. It seems revealing to me that even though you like this guy and are feeling romantic towards him, that even when he gave you several opportunities to support alternative ways of living (i.e., by telling you he is not into marriage, etc.) you supported cultural tradition instead of who and how you feel. You encouraged him to do the culturally acceptable thing and get married and have kids. Even though you have romantic feelings for this guy, you chose culture over your self... and maybe over his self as well? You may very well be two gay guys struggling to accept and be your self in a less than gay friendly culture.

The greek culture is confused as fuck. We have a saying which if i was to do a word to word translation would say "sea storm in a skull". That means that someone's thoughts/idea are very confusing/ don't make sense. Some people say that greece exists bcz of christianity forgetting that the classic antiquity is way before that. They believe in both Zeus and Christ and they are confused (to put it gently). They even believe that gay sex did not occur in ancient greece ignoring all the classic texts.

I took for granted that my friend is a) str8 b) in love with her, so I advised him accordingly. So I chose to tell him my unbiased as possible opinion. 
About homophobia yes, it does exist. I think that the surgical field is more homophobic than internal medicine for some reason. If i was a haematologist it would be easier in the hospital I think.

I was a bit brave today, I rubbed his back when I said hello and i'm pretty sure he liked it. We also book tickets for my hometown. I'm stressed a bit.

[tallslenderguy]

1 hour ago, Alchemist said:

The greek culture is confused as fuck. We have a saying which if i was to do a word to word translation would say "sea storm in a skull". That means that someone's thoughts/idea are very confusing/ don't make sense. Some people say that greece exists bcz of christianity forgetting that the classic antiquity is way before that. They believe in both Zeus and Christ and they are confused (to put it gently). They even believe that gay sex did not occur in ancient greece ignoring all the classic texts.

I took for granted that my friend is a) str8 b) in love with her, so I advised him accordingly. So I chose to tell him my unbiased as possible opinion. 
About homophobia yes, it does exist. I think that the surgical field is more homophobic than internal medicine for some reason. If i was a haematologist it would be easier in the hospital I think.

I was a bit brave today, I rubbed his back when I said hello and i'm pretty sure he liked it. We also book tickets for my hometown. I'm stressed a bit.

lol, i love: "sea storm in a skull."   And about some turning a blind eye to gay sex in Greek culture?  It demonstrates how blind sub culture can be and reinforces ethnocentricity. 

i think it's a sign of love and maturity that you are affirming your friend because you take "for granted that [he] is str8."  i'd question taking his being straight "for granted" though.  To me, he is sending mixed signals, but i understand that is speculation on my part, and maybe wishful thinking because i want to see two possibly closeted gay guys find romance lol. i am a romantic.  i know i was calling myself straight for many years, married and a total gay bottom at the same time. i was confused by my cultural conditioning, not lying. i thought it was a choice, etc.  So it's easy for me to imagine your friend in a similar way, but it's still just imagination on my part.

And yeah, i get the stress feelings too. i have a budding romance of my own going on right now and i fluctuate between being high as a kite and axniety. ❤️

[Alchemist]

6 minutes ago, tallslenderguy said:

lol, i love: "sea storm in a skull."   And about some turning a blind eye to gay sex in Greek culture?  It demonstrates how blind sub culture can be and reinforces ethnocentricity. 

i think it's a sign of love and maturity that you are affirming your friend because you take "for granted that [he] is str8."  i'd question taking his being straight "for granted" though.  To me, he is sending mixed signals, but i understand that is speculation on my part, and maybe wishful thinking because i want to see two possibly closeted gay guys find romance lol. i am a romantic.  i know i was calling myself straight for many years, married and a total gay bottom at the same time. i was confused by my cultural conditioning, not lying. i thought it was a choice, etc.  So it's easy for me to imagine your friend in a similar way, but it's still just imagination on my part.

And yeah, i get the stress feelings too. i have a budding romance of my own going on right now and i fluctuate between being high as a kite and axniety. ❤️

I'm glad you liked the expression. It's "τρικυμία εν κρανίω" (100% translation is 3 waves in a skull). About the ethnocentric people.. it's ridiculous. They will remember Alexander the Great and how big Greece was back then, then they will say he was a Christian.. they will say Socrates was a Christian.. they believe that Christianity is unique and that Jesus was the only person to come back from the dead.. Persephone is like bitch please.

 

Today we had a patient with Neisseria gonorrhoeae infection. Everyone was too shy to ask about his sexual behaviors and the whole patient interview was almost poetic. No one dared to ask "are u gay" but there was a vague sense that he was. It's almost as those exercises in school that they ask you "what did the autho mean when.." That's about the homophobia part. Being gay is an offence.

I never called myself str8, it was easy for me to accept that i liked boys. I had a crash for my eternal ginger friend. Not exaxtly sexual. It was too young for that I suppose. But his sight made me feel happy. Steven King had a small poem in a book ("it").
 

Your hair is winter fire
January embers
My heart burns there, too.

it could sound silly, but that was what I felt about my ginger. So if u like romance you may like that story as well. In any case, I hope my friend likes my hometown..

[tallslenderguy]

i think it's the Brittish who have a similar description: "tempest in a teapot."  Leave it to the Britts to depersonalize it lol. 

i think we all have ethnocetricities, or approximations of them, and i think many of them are hidden. i listen to music from the 60's ad 70's and think now: "wow, that's sexist"  But i didn't realize it then and would have been insulted had someone called me "sexist."  i think there a plenty of social standards we take for granted that have religious cultural roots.

Re your patient, i see it here too. Questions about sexual activity are a standard part of charting, but i rarely see it filled out. The thing about the gay patient is he may have other infections that do not get tested for because the system is to shy to ask. We give a urinalysis, but do not swab his throat or anus because straight guys don't suck cock or take it up the ass. So gay people often  go underserved. It's understood here, and there are efforts to correct it. We have annual education requirements that teach everyone how to overcome heteronormative presumption, but it's a slow process. 

i totally get your ginger crush. i had a crush on my cousin as early as age 10 and i still have dreams about him that seemingly come out of no where. It's not like i sit around thinking about him, but he is obviously somewhere in my sub conscious. 

[blackrobe]

13 minutes ago, tallslenderguy said:

i think it's the Brittish who have a similar description: "tempest in a teapot."  Leave it to the Britts to depersonalize it lol. 

i think we all have ethnocetricities, or approximations of them, and i think many of them are hidden. i listen to music from the 60's ad 70's and think now: "wow, that's sexist"  But i didn't realize it then and would have been insulted had someone called me "sexist."  i think there a plenty of social standards we take for granted that have religious cultural roots.

Re your patient, i see it here too. Questions about sexual activity are a standard part of charting, but i rarely see it filled out. The thing about the gay patient is he may have other infections that do not get tested for because the system is to shy to ask. We give a urinalysis, but do not swab his throat or anus because straight guys don't suck cock or take it up the ass. So gay people often  go underserved. It's understood here, and there are efforts to correct it. We have annual education requirements that teach everyone how to overcome heteronormative presumption, but it's a slow process. 

i totally get your ginger crush. i had a crush on my cousin as early as age 10 and i still have dreams about him that seemingly come out of no where. It's not like i sit around thinking about him, but he is obviously somewhere in my sub conscious. 

There are many versions of the saying. In Australia I heard it most often as "storm in a teacup"...

[Alchemist]

1 hour ago, tallslenderguy said:

i totally get your ginger crush. i had a crush on my cousin as early as age 10 and i still have dreams about him that seemingly come out of no where. It's not like i sit around thinking about him, but he is obviously somewhere in my sub conscious. 

I think some feelings or thoughts never fade. They're inked to our souls. When I was far from ginger I was just thinking how would he react to things that happen in my daily life. I never managed to find him again. I know he still thinks of me as I do. I hope he's still there when i go.

[Guest]

On 11/29/2021 at 10:06 PM, Alchemist said:

I know he still thinks of me as I do.

oh good, this piece of fantasy-writing now includes the ability to min-read over great distances.
can't wait what happens next. (yes, I am being sarcastic).