I don't understand the desire to get pozzed

[BootmanLA]

2 hours ago, ErosWired said:

Make no mistake - we’re still immunocompromised, and still at increased risk of getting sick, and getting sicker than we otherwise would have if we were neg with CD4 counts above 500. But as long as a person stays on his meds and stays in a U=U condition, there isn’t a risk of suddenly falling prey to an opportunistic infection. If there were, we’d all have to live in big bubbles.

I'd only add this: IF a person is HIV+, and IF that person foregoes treatment until his CD4 count is abysmally low (whether deliberately, or through not knowing his status), HIV meds can (and almost certainly will) bring his viral count down, and they SHOULD enable his immune system to recover and boost his CD4 counts, BUT... if there's enough damage to the immune system, it may never recover sufficiently, such that even ordinary infections which a healthy, non-immunocompromised person could shrug off without notice might prove serious.

This situation is rare, and I suspect the odds of it happening are getting lower and lower, as more people go on medications immediately after infection or early in the process, and as medication efficacy improves. And by rare, I mean probably not more than a few dozen cases out there. And before anyone asks, that's not to suggest that becoming infected by such a person puts you in the same boat; the issue here isn't how strong the virus is, but how much damage was done to the person's system by not being treated.

[ErosWired]

2 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

I'd only add this: IF a person is HIV+, and IF that person foregoes treatment until his CD4 count is abysmally low (whether deliberately, or through not knowing his status), HIV meds can (and almost certainly will) bring his viral count down, and they SHOULD enable his immune system to recover and boost his CD4 counts, BUT... if there's enough damage to the immune system, it may never recover sufficiently, such that even ordinary infections which a healthy, non-immunocompromised person could shrug off without notice might prove serious.

This situation is rare, and I suspect the odds of it happening are getting lower and lower, as more people go on medications immediately after infection or early in the process, and as medication efficacy improves. And by rare, I mean probably not more than a few dozen cases out there. And before anyone asks, that's not to suggest that becoming infected by such a person puts you in the same boat; the issue here isn't how strong the virus is, but how much damage was done to the person's system by not being treated.

I was in the status-not-known category, and my CD4 count tanked to 49.  Normal minimum is 500. The threshold for an AIDS diagnosis is 200. I’ve spent the last nine years trying mightily to reach 400 again. The closest I’ve ever gotten was 439 back in 2019. Since then I’ve hovered in the lower 300s, and in 2021 watched it fall to 201 (!) before clawing its way back up. In nine years, I have missed exactly two (2) doses of my daily meds. I am essthe poster boy for meds compliance, and I still can’t recover what I lost. I will likely never see 500 again.

My HIV specialist isn’t worried. She says I have enough immune response that I don’t need to worry about diseases lying in wait for the weak because I’m over 200. She said viral load id the thing to watch, because as long as it’s suppressed, the body has a chance to rebuild.

[hairyone]

Even though many people have their HIV well under control, we don't know what's going to happen later.  These "miracle cocktail" drugs have only been around for around 20 years or so.  What are these drugs going to do to us after another 10 years, or 20, or more?  We may keep HIV at bay but no one has taken these "cocktail" drugs for 30 years or longer, yet.  These are strong meds and, if not monitored, can be toxic. We don't know if we are going to wind up with a cancer, or organ failure, or whatever.  

I hope to be around another 30 or 40 years but not if my bones start snapping, or a weird cancer, or lose my mind. I sure as fuck don't want to live like that.
I already mentioned that I've noticed I've aged a lot faster than I should after almost 20 years of being poz and on meds.  I'm dealing with early disk degeneration (I'm over 2 inches shorter!) and it's quite painful at times. Is it HIV related?  Drug related? Was I doomed to have this regardless? We don't know.  It's going to take many years of statistics after we're long gone to figure that out.

My doctor tried to comfort me and told me when I converted that this disease will not kill me.  It will be something else. He's probably right.  But that something else may be something we can't imagine at a time not expected.

[BootmanLA]

6 hours ago, ErosWired said:

I was in the status-not-known category, and my CD4 count tanked to 49.  Normal minimum is 500. The threshold for an AIDS diagnosis is 200. I’ve spent the last nine years trying mightily to reach 400 again. The closest I’ve ever gotten was 439 back in 2019. Since then I’ve hovered in the lower 300s, and in 2021 watched it fall to 201 (!) before clawing its way back up. In nine years, I have missed exactly two (2) doses of my daily meds. I am essthe poster boy for meds compliance, and I still can’t recover what I lost. I will likely never see 500 again.

My HIV specialist isn’t worried. She says I have enough immune response that I don’t need to worry about diseases lying in wait for the weak because I’m over 200. She said viral load id the thing to watch, because as long as it’s suppressed, the body has a chance to rebuild.

Agreed - as I said, for most people, their immune systems recover enough to be effective. And hopefully, you're among them (or, rather, that you'll continue to be among them). But I know of cases where the immune system in the patient simply couldn't recover, even as his viral load fell to (the old) UD levels.

It may be that this isn't ever going to be a problem with the most recent drug innovations. I'd hope so. But unless the CDC or some other equally respected health institution confirms that becoming undetectable *ensures* recovery of the immune system to at least above-AIDS level, I'm going to assume that's still a (thankfully rare) possibility.

[ErosWired]

10 hours ago, hairyone said:

What are these drugs going to do to us after another 10 years, or 20, or more?  We may keep HIV at bay but no one has taken these "cocktail" drugs for 30 years or longer, yet.  These are strong meds and, if not monitored, can be toxic. We don't know if we are going to wind up with a cancer, or organ failure, or whatever.  

The concern about long-term effects of taking these drugs is real, and they do have a harsh effect on the body’s systems. My doctor just changed me off Biktarvy onto Juluca out of a concern that Biktarvy might be causing a deterioration in my kidneys, which could be made worse because Biktarvy doesn’t play nice with the Metformin I take for Type 2 Diabetes, which I never had until I started taking AIDS meds.

The good news, sir, is that this medication will save your life. The bad news is that it’s a deadly slow-acting poison. Which pharmacy shall I send the prescription to?

No, we don’t know what the results would be of taking these meds for 20-30 years, but the positive thing is that we aren’t going to have to find out. We won’t be taking the same meds in 20 years. We aren’t taking the same meds now that we took ten years ago. I’ve changed medications five times in nine years as my doctors have switched me to take advantage of advances in efficacy and reduction in side effects. In twenty years, treatment of HIV may look entirely different.

In 20 years, it may be curable. We can hope, can’t we?

Edited October 13, 2023 by ErosWired

[Guest]

Growing up in Northern California in the 80s I would fantasize about the rumors of a magical gay sex land, Polk Street San Francisco. But there was a big catch to such fantasies in the 80’s. Protection became an obsession. I think this just ultimately boiled over in me to the point where I wanted to embrace it rather than fear it. But this all happened in my subconscious; the way it manifested is in me getting extremely aroused at the slightest thought of a poz cock pumping a thick, viral load up my slutty fuck hole. 
Still neg and verbal poz tops are an obsession.

[hntnhole]

First, thanks to all you guys for the uncompromising laying bare the facts. 

Secondly, thanks for sharing your own perspectives, apprehensions, feelings.  Only thoughtful, considerate men would be able to do that. 

So much can depend on the decisions we make as our lives unfold.  I remember thinking I was going to move to SanFran many years ago (before hiv), and jump into the pile with both feet.  Then, I met my other half, and made a different decision, which almost certainly allowed me to live a much longer life.  A fortuitous "chance" decision?  Maybe, maybe not. 

The point is, each of us makes decisions that will impact our lives in the moment, and perhaps far into the future too.  We can only do our best to sit our asses down, think through what is, try to conceive of what might be later on, and take our chances.  I hear echo's of regret in some of the above responses, which is truly sad.  I also hear echo's of hope in some, and I only wish I had the power to make them come true.  

The fact is, life's a crap-shoot one way or another, and that's a good enough reason to make every day count. I love every one of you - my chosen brothers.

[danolivaw]

I understand the need to feel skin on skin when you fuck. And I understand for some getting pozzed is just a license to get that skin on skin action anytime and all the time. 

[Bimarried001]

All I can add is that I was poz before I had a chance to debate all of this. I believe that if I had a chance to avoid getting hiv I would’ve avoided it. Especially because around the time I got infected hiv was more of a death sentence. 
I can more understand guys today chasing because it’s no longer a death sentence. But even today with it no longer being a death sentence I would not be a chaser. 
Now, getting pozzed when I did freed my mind. I no longer had to worry about getting it. I remember my position. I didn’t want to pass it on (intentionally) but assumed that anyone fucking me raw was already poz. 
Today I assume they are poz or on prep. 
I am poz for almost 40 years and my health is where I believe it would be had I not been poz. 

[hairyone]

4 hours ago, Bimarried001 said:

I can more understand guys today chasing because it’s no longer a death sentence. But even today with it no longer being a death sentence I would not be a chaser. 

Whoah! Hold on there.  It's no longer a death sentence for MOST people. 

I wish the best of luck you are part of the MOST people. Too all of us. 

[brnbk]

Human existence is complex, and disease and catastrophic events such an accident or death are hard to make sense of.. Most of us (including me) think we are immune... until the building in our house starts shaking and we realize we are in an earthquake!! How could this be happening to me, we wonder!

[the prevalence of] AIDS is a man made condition: it largely spread because of the Regan government's inaction to deal with the crisis when it first exploded roughly between 1979-82. Regan's ideological and religious hostility to homosexuality is very strange considering he was a Hollywood hero and his wife was a regular consultant of astrologers; hardly the model evangelical Christian couple, IMO. Interestingly, Aids predominantly affected gay men in the West, and black people in Africa, two population groups that the Christian right and the US government that it controlled – deemed as "undesirables" and deviating from the "White norm".

Gay men in the United States, whatever their color, where seen as enemies and had to fight for their rights: both against their own family's oppression and the church/faith community and government's repression — going the extra mile, so that we have the freedoms that we have. These freedoms where slowly being realized around the world and just when we thought that the world was becoming a better place, the broader notion of freedoms, the pursuit of human happiness, are sadly under attack in the United States, the land where they first became real. 

I believe majority of the gay men who wish to get pozzed are trying in a way to fight back against the US Government and its erstwhile war against the gays, and the legacy of it. Perhaps they are trying to be martyrs bravely fighting against the world that was was taken away from us – by the force of a Virus. Maybe its a toxic family or school bully's taunt that u are a fa.g.t and will end up getting AIDS anyways drives them. With the availability of Prep, it is indeed hard to understand why someone would choose such a so called 'self-destructive' path. The only reason I can think of is socially sanctioned Homophobia, which makes their life so miserable.... that they don't care if they are making 'rational choices'... 

 

 

 

[Bimarried001]

2 hours ago, hairyone said:

Whoah! Hold on there.  It's no longer a death sentence for MOST people. 

I wish the best of luck you are part of the MOST people. Too all of us. 

Not sure what you mean and what you think I meant. But back in the 80s aids was like Covid in 2020. People were getting in and dying in high numbers. 
I can’t remember the last time I heard of someone dying of aids. Not saying it doesn’t happen but it’s not anywhere near the rate of the 80s. 
Now if you get hiv you can get on meds and never have to worry. 

[hairyone]

10 minutes ago, Bimarried001 said:

Not sure what you mean and what you think I meant. But back in the 80s aids was like Covid in 2020. People were getting in and dying in high numbers. 
I can’t remember the last time I heard of someone dying of aids. Not saying it doesn’t happen but it’s not anywhere near the rate of the 80s. 
Now if you get hiv you can get on meds and never have to worry. 

When you said "it is no longer a death sentence" I thought you meant that when people get HIV and take the medication, they don't die from AIDS anymore.  I had the same interpretation when you said, "if you get hiv you can get on meds and never have to worry. " 

So I apologize I misinterpreted your statement.  All I wanted to clarify is that some people still die from AIDS even if they take the medication.   True, it is nothing like it was before the medication (not even close).  But people still die from it even if they do everything they can to stay alive.  Yes, it is still best to take the medication as instructed if someone is infected and they have an excellent chance of survival. But it is not 100% and saying "never have to worry" is a negligent overstatement. 

There are a lot of HIV-negative people on this forum that are considering becoming infected and they need to know the truth about ALL possibilities.  Yes, they should take their meds and live their lives.  But, even though most of us can find ways to cover the $36,000.00 cost per year for those meds, we should still be aware it is not a full panacea. That is all my response was meant to be.

[Bimarried001]

25 minutes ago, hairyone said:

When you said "it is no longer a death sentence" I thought you meant that when people get HIV and take the medication, they don't die from AIDS anymore.  I had the same interpretation when you said, "if you get hiv you can get on meds and never have to worry. " 

So I apologize I misinterpreted your statement.  All I wanted to clarify is that some people still die from AIDS even if they take the medication.   True, it is nothing like it was before the medication (not even close).  But people still die from it even if they do everything they can to stay alive.  Yes, it is still best to take the medication as instructed if someone is infected and they have an excellent chance of survival. But it is not 100% and saying "never have to worry" is a negligent overstatement. 

There are a lot of HIV-negative people on this forum that are considering becoming infected and they need to know the truth about ALL possibilities.  Yes, they should take their meds and live their lives.  But, even though most of us can find ways to cover the $36,000.00 cost per year for those meds, we should still be aware it is not a full panacea. That is all my response was meant to be.

Understood. Right you are hearing that the Covid crisis is over but we still have small percentage of people dying from Covid. 
Obviously we can never say never.  

[brnbk]

I am of the view that the US government mismanaged the situation ,deliberately, out of an animus towards the gay and black populations. I do believe the situation would have been handled differently and the outcome in terms of mortality would have been much different had the  people affected been predominantly wealthier white people,  say of the East Coast Elite. This animus can be ascribed to the evangelical-fundamentalist faith lead by the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, with an irrational hatred of gay people and gay culture and the racial underpinnings of US Christianity.

This context is important in interpreting the reactions of gay men to the AIDS crisis, and that certainly includes bug chasing.

 

On 8/21/2023 at 11:03 PM, BootmanLA said:

'm not sure there's much of a philosophical basis for saying HIV chasers ought to be responsible for some or all of their care while not demanding the same for any of these other categories.

I absolutely agree, since HIV was imposed on the gay population, to begin. Gay men did not choose to become HIV poz. When their community was made Poz, many of them became poz. HIV chasers are a legacy of that pathology that was imposed on gays. Sure, I will give you that HIV chasers are pathological but what I would like to highlight is that this pathology was imposed — Trickle down politics  😇by a right wing Administration. 

 

On 8/22/2023 at 12:42 AM, ErosWired said:

being willing to support persons who have actively engineered a misfortune that need not have been, and that threatens to harm others.

If we consider the historical context of HIV and realize that it was actually engineered on the gay population.... we are less likely to see the choices that some gay men make i.e. to pursue Sero Conversion as insane or harmful. . While gays who chose or fantasize about becoming poz are perhaps making a pathological choice, the Pathology was Imposed from up above.... 

  

On 8/21/2023 at 1:43 PM, Vancrawman said:

It may wax and wane according to one's life at any given moment, but for me it's always there burrowed into my being. Doesn't mean everyone's going to act on it...indeed, for most it remains only a fantasy. But for some, we take the steps to turn it to reality. 

You couldn't have stated it better⬆️

 

On 8/21/2023 at 11:01 AM, ErosWired said:

Thus we also observe gifter/chaser culture to be irrational at the population level. A society that openly distributed a deadly pathogen would eventually cease to be. The ‘brotherhood’ we’re discussing speaks openly of going without meds, seeking high viral loads, and trying to reach the advanced stage of the disease so as to appear ‘wasted’, as though it were a status symbol and not a harbinger of death. Their philosophy, taken to its logical conclusion, would doom a society, if not a species.

Hardly irrational IMO, but a way to exist! The deadly pathogen was not equally distributed to the population. Gay men got it in exceedingly large numbers, and often exclusively. The Brotherhood that u label misguided, was actually trying to identify itself and stand up and exist, pretty much like the gay prisoner in a Nazi Holocaust camp, wearing his Triangle symbol proud and aloud, to a society that did not understand gay men and their needs including their sexual wants.

 

On 8/22/2023 at 3:05 PM, norefusal said:

couple this with mainstream society's habit of considering gay and aids interchangeable synonyms and it's no stretch  to "are you even a faggot if you're not poz" 

Gay men around the world face this immense pressure to convert to straight society and its norms. Be masculine, get married (to a women), ... and so many gay men often choose an extreme and i will readily admit self destructive path of becoming positive as to wanting to sort of refuse straight social norms. While their actions might seem self destructive, it has to be understood in the historical background and gay history in the United States which has to include the Pre Prep period as well. 

As is true of any historical minority, they often do hold on to pathological behaviors that served them in the past often as a legacy of their own identity and history. I want to be clear, I am not defending guys who are actively choosing to become positive by not being on Prep and still barebacking. I am glad that many poz men here have clearly enumerated the reality of the health and personal costs of living with HIV. However, I do think that guys who want to get poz are clearly suffering,  from the suffocation that Straight Society imposes on gays their culture and sexuality and... structurally imposed on them through the HIV Crisis and Spread of Aids.