The Ethics of Outing.

[ellentonboy]

2 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

But that's just it. This isn't about outing; this is about extortion. "Pay me X or I'll do Y" isn't about Y nearly so much as it's about the demand for X.

And I notice you didn't mention the politics of this elected official; I'm guessing that they weren't the reason for the exposure, but instead the refusal to pay was. Assuming the official wasn't actively working to harm the community, yes, it was a nasty thing to do to him, and your greedy "friend" (or however you want to characterize him) did a shitty thing. Personally, if I found out someone I knew did something that awful, I'd cut off contact with him, but that's just me and my standards.

To be honest, I wasn't aware what an awful thing my friend had done until after I had sex with him the first time.  It was the guy who he was staying with, who flew him from Washington state to Florida who said, "hey google Cody *******" after I leave and that will tell you a few things about him"  Well I did just that, and spent several hours reading all the stories, watching the television interview he gave to a cable network, and reading the final dispensation (?) of his case.  So say I was stunned would be an understatement.   The guy never asked me for a thing, except a piece of ass which I was glad to give him.   I know he did not have sex with his host either, considering he flew him from another state I would think that was part of the deal.  I asked them both, privately, and both denied any kind of sexual encounters.  We didn't really discuss his arrest till about a year later,  on his birthday.   He asked me, how am I going to get a job at my age (maybe 33 at the time) with a felony conviction?  I didn't know how to answer that.

As far as the political party the elected official was part of, I really don't know.  That never crossed my mind.   What i did know what he was married and had children, who I believe were grown.  There was some grainy hotel footage of my "friend" coming into the hotel, I suppose that is when he handed him the extortion letter.  The bottom line is he refused to pay, and ended up resigning.  This all happened in Spokane, not Seattle.  From what my friend tells me, Spokane is a much smaller city and his family was furious with him, having dragged their name into the press.  It seems they owned some kind of family business and they took a hit from his behavior.  I found that surprising, because the first article I found online mentions clearly he's an escort, and even appeared in a T.I.M video - I believe Damon Dogg sucks America, the San Diego version.  He also did some other BB videos, from studios that never caught on.  So his behavior had to be known to his family.

You mentioned cutting off contact with him.  I see your point, he had "sticky fingers" I know there were posting on A4A stating that he had stolen from several individuals.  Even the guy who flew him from Washington, he treated him poorly.  My "friend" just disappeared, and I happened to be the last one to see him as we had hooked up maybe two days prior to him ghosting everyone.  I later asked him why he didn't tell his "host" he was departing, and he said that he felt he was being pushed out of the house,  there were guys coming and going, and he was asked to give up his bedroom (that was true).  I never knew him to work the entire time he was in Florida, though his host ran several small gay novelty stores so he may have helped out there.

I treat people the way they treat me.  He was always fun to be with, the sex was fantastic, and he never asked for anything or stole from me.  He always arrived by cab and left by one.

So did I enable him?  I don't think so.  Once he left my friend's house, he hung out with a guy in Tampa for a while.  I believe that prompted some of the postings on A4A about him stealing.  I do know he is back in Washington state, where at I am not sure but another poster on BZ mentioned they saw him either on Facebook or another hookup site.

He's just a chapter in my life, I enjoyed my time with him, and I don't judge him.  He is paying dearly for his behavior.

[ellentonboy]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:11 AM, meetme said:

Money should NEVER be involved with sex.  If it’s $1300 or $30,000. Not even $3.00. If you don’t want to be with each other, it can’t be a good experience, and if only the buyer wants it enough to pay, that’s bad news too. 

What if the buyer has no other options, he can't meet anyone either online, on an app, or in person.  What if he is handicapped or disabled in some way.  Don't you think he has the right to make the decision to pay for sex?

Then think about the guy who can't pay rent, is going to lose his car to the bank, or has little or no food. If the individual who is in the position to help this guy out financially, why not?  Who is being hurt here?  Not the guy paying, because he can't find sex on his own and has the financial means to pay for it.  The recipient could be one step away from homelessness......so what is wrong with the two of them coming into an agreement to help each other out.

Sorry but I disagree with you on this subject.

[BootmanLA]

5 minutes ago, ellentonboy said:

From what my friend tells me, Spokane is a much smaller city and his family was furious with him, having dragged their name into the press.  It seems they owned some kind of family business and they took a hit from his behavior.  I found that surprising, because the first article I found online mentions clearly he's an escort, and even appeared in a T.I.M video - I believe Damon Dogg sucks America, the San Diego version.  He also did some other BB videos, from studios that never caught on.  So his behavior had to be known to his family.

Spokane is indeed much smaller and more conservative than Seattle - Spokane may be a little more liberal than some of the really hard-core right-wing towns on that side of the state, but it's not really liberal in the sense any of us would consider. 

But you might be surprised at how little a family may know about the exploits of one of their members, especially if he just doesn't tell them. If he was escorting in southern California and that's where he made his videos, how likely would it be that his family - presumably all straight and conservative - would even come across said videos, or learn about his hustling gigs? Not very, in my opinion. Not that I ever did porn (cue: sigh of relief from da gayz), but if I had, I doubt seriously my parents would have ever found out; they just wouldn't have had any reason to go looking, any desire to know, or anyone who was likely to tell them.

[tallslenderguy]

On 9/17/2023 at 12:06 PM, brnbk said:

Is it ever moral to out a gay man?

Is it ever acceptable for a gay/bi person to pass as straight ?

i don't think this has a one size fits all answer. To me, one of the worst offenses a person can commit against another is to violate their volition.  

Public figures who purposely influence legislation or social standards that affect gay people in a negative way? Yeah, i think they have given up any reasonable respect of their privacy as regards gay matters. If they are attacking gays, it borders on ridiculous to me to expect that gay people will not fight back.  To me, their attacking gay sexuality is a violation of gay peoples privacy, so it seems to me, outing them is subjecting them to their own standards.

By the same token, a public figure who has no record of causing harm to gay people and chooses to keep their sexuality private? i'd consider it morally wrong to violate their privacy.   

As far as it ever being "acceptable for a gay/bi person to pass as straight?"  Lol, i'm a critical care nurse, a stereotypical gay profession for a male, and i have to frequently explain to people that i'm gay. Apparently, i do not come off as gay, can't tell by looking. i'm actually kind of disappointed that i get asked out on dates from women and have never been approached by a guy where i work.  Apparently i don't "pass" as gay. 

[ellentonboy]

1 hour ago, BootmanLA said:

Spokane is indeed much smaller and more conservative than Seattle - Spokane may be a little more liberal than some of the really hard-core right-wing towns on that side of the state, but it's not really liberal in the sense any of us would consider. 

But you might be surprised at how little a family may know about the exploits of one of their members, especially if he just doesn't tell them. If he was escorting in southern California and that's where he made his videos, how likely would it be that his family - presumably all straight and conservative - would even come across said videos, or learn about his hustling gigs? Not very, in my opinion. Not that I ever did porn (cue: sigh of relief from da gayz), but if I had, I doubt seriously my parents would have ever found out; they just wouldn't have had any reason to go looking, any desire to know, or anyone who was likely to tell them.

Well I just googled it, he was indicted 2007, but the elected official he tried to extort wrote the prosecutor and asked for the entire case to be dismissed.

It turns out his felony conviction comes from stealing money at a casino.  A woman hit a small  jackpot, he stole the "ticket" and cashed that in.  So the prosecutor got his felony conviction against my friend regardless.  However, the extortion case was dropped at the request of the victim.  The article I read was that the victim's life was "in ruins", and yes he was a Republican.

It was all over the local Spokane media, calling him an "escort" or "former porn star", so until he did this idiotic thing I can see why it would be fairly easy to hide his other "activities"

I can't believe it was 2007 that he did this, when I look at him in that T.I.M video he looks about 19.  He looked, maybe 30 by the time I met him.  I just wonder if his life will ever be the same.

[hntnhole]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:11 AM, meetme said:

Money should NEVER be involved with sex

There's a possible exception to this type of transaction:  Say some gay guy lost his job, then his home, and winds up hungry.  Say he's been through the mill in any of a number of ways, has not achieved much education, skills, all of that.  

Troubles come to a lot of people, sometimes through no fault of their own.  It's not outside the realm of possibility that the only thing the guy can do to keep food in his belly is to hook up for cash.  

Someone once said around a couple of millennia ago:  Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, etc, etc.  That Someone didn't say grill the person in need for the reasons they're down, just do the humane thing.  And I'm guessing that same Someone would offer that after the fuck, buy the unfortunate guy some dinner too.  

Call me a Bleeding Heart Liberal .... I'm ok with that.  

[Kayne]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:11 AM, meetme said:

Money should NEVER be involved with sex.  If it’s $1300 or $30,000. Not even $3.00. If you don’t want to be with each other, it can’t be a good experience, and if only the buyer wants it enough to pay, that’s bad news too. 

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here big time.  

Now that we can actually speak about sex work unvarnished in this forum I'm going to say I am all for it! And no only because I have been a part of that world, or even that I was born into it.

Man (Woman) comes into this world with nothing he truly owns but his body. If for what ever reason, (not every sex worker is a victim)  (S)He decides to use what (s)he's got, to get what (s)he wants / needs, that is no one else's business.

It never ceases to amaze me how people are perfe tky fine with paying everyone else to get a piece of you.  what do I mean by that?    the venue is paid. be it a movie, show, restaurant,  night club- your meeting place gets paid.  you pay for gyms  and clothes and perfumes or colognes and sometimes surgery to make yourself attractive so that someone may want to have sex  with you. you pay for food, you pay for drinks you might pay for drugs. All these other people get something so that you have a chance to drain your balls. But you draw the line at paying the person who you intend to dump your load into. 

and it doesn't matter if  its a lifetime commitment or a 3 minute quickie. 

at the end, the one DOING the work should receive something other than Jim dripping out of their various holes and an STD Panel.

Most people pay Sex Workers to go away afterwards anyway, because post nut clarity bring back whatever religeous or Societal dogma you've been raised with making one wanna distance one's self from the "filthy things" they've done... for example... youpick up some trade you get you dick sucked, your cum swallowed. you feel better because your wife (girlfriend,  boyfriend etc) would never do that for you, or your church said you sinbed because that wasn't ti create new life. shame fills your thoughts and you want that person farcaway so you can lie to yourself that it never happened. 

 But not everyone likes being used and thrown away. compensating them negates some of the damage you've caused.  but you're not okay paying for that.  

yeah...

That to me is disgusting.

 

I would also like to add that some people are not able to charm, con, seduce, or use any other means to get into someone else's pants. yet, human contact - carnal contact is a basic human need as we are social creatures. I see no difference between Fucking/ being fucked,  a sex worker or spending arguably more to lay on a couch and talk to some doctor about how you hated your parents growing up.

[Kayne]

You know, when I was a kid, AIDS was the boogeyman and a death sentence.  I remember All those women on Donahue, The original Jerry Sprin.ger, Oprah and Sally Jesse Raphael , who were with men for 20/30/40 years who gave them kids and made homes for them only to be rewarded with HIV and or a Trans partner.

I always thought that getting an innocent person involved i. your fucked up life/ lying to your partner for decades and then dropping this bombshell was a Dick move and if I could out assholes like that, I'd do it .

[SomewhereonNeptune]

There’s really no conflict here. Ask yourself this: Who are you to judge? 

In your own ideal world, you’ll probably think about moral relativism and how you believe your own ethics should apply. But it’s just that — your ethics, meaning you feel entitled to sit in judgment of someone else’s choices in which you may also indulge. How much of that hurts both of you? Why do you get to judge his gay behavior and feel morally or ethically superior?

Personally, am I really better than anyone else? Worse than them? I don’t think so and I don’t have the first hand knowledge of their circumstances; therefore, I cannot judge them on their decision of coming out or not (how difficult was that for many of us without having it be a forced upheaval). It’s not my decision to force upon someone nor should it be anyone else’s. 

Just my $0.02.

[SomewhereonNeptune]

On 9/20/2023 at 10:11 AM, meetme said:

Money should NEVER be involved with sex.  If it’s $1300 or $30,000. Not even $3.00. If you don’t want to be with each other, it can’t be a good experience, and if only the buyer wants it enough to pay, that’s bad news too. 

You say this here, but let’s give this another perspective.

• Adult talent - for them, sex on camera is their profession. If money isn’t involved, how would that work?
• OnlyFans, JustForFans, other adult sites - seems there’s a supply and demand equation at work. If someone wants to pay a certain person $15/month to see cock (or tits), is that not a fair exchange?
• Social Media/Hookup sites - ever see how many people are seeking “gen”? Seems like every 3rd person on many sites. I’m not buying, but if someone else is, should that be a private decision for both of them (despite the laws about solicitation)?

I’m not personally that transactional, but if two other consenting adults are, shouldn’t that be their decision?

 

[meetme]

10 hours ago, ellentonboy said:

What if the buyer has no other options, he can't meet anyone either online, on an app, or in person.  What if he is handicapped or disabled in some way.  Don't you think he has the right to make the decision to pay for sex?

Then think about the guy who can't pay rent, is going to lose his car to the bank, or has little or no food. If the individual who is in the position to help this guy out financially, why not?  Who is being hurt here?  Not the guy paying, because he can't find sex on his own and has the financial means to pay for it.  The recipient could be one step away from homelessness......so what is wrong with the two of them coming into an agreement to help each other out.

Sorry but I disagree with you on this subject.

Well that’s your prerogative. I pay my own way and I have enough self respect that I’m asked for money before someone wants to b3 with me they can hit the road.  Other people may not feel that buying a physical encounter with someone else makes them feel very undesirable.  Likewise if a partner has to be drunk or high before sex, I’ll just wait until someone actually wants to be with me.  

[meetme]

I’m only speaking for myself., clearly.  You want to mix sex and money, I won’t stop you, and  I’m not responsible for you.  I don’t lie about who I am or pay others to act against their own will. 

[Kayne]

2 hours ago, meetme said:

I’m only speaking for myself., clearly.  You want to mix sex and money, I won’t stop you, and  I’m not responsible for you.  I don’t lie about who I am or pay others to act against their own will. 

Okay so you're telling me that whether or not you consciously realize it in the moment or not that if you....

Pay for the date or

pay for the transportation  - even if it was just to transport one of you so that you both share the same space-

Pay for the shelter / Vene

... that if he, last minute decides to leave you bluebells, you're not gonna be pissed?

when you've come out of pocket with at least 3 other people  that aren't even the guy you want to nut in. 

I'm looking for your honest  raw reaction, not the societal curated understanding that you "aren't entitled" to sex

If the fact thatcyou had to pay everyone around him ro get your dick wet, and it doesn't happen. you're a fucking Saint. 

and by the same token, if you're already shelling out ducats everyone else, why does payi g the dude actually involved with knocking your bits around, so insulting , abhorrent, or degrading to you? 

[tallslenderguy]

On 9/20/2023 at 7:11 AM, meetme said:

Money should NEVER be involved with sex.  If it’s $1300 or $30,000. Not even $3.00. If you don’t want to be with each other, it can’t be a good experience, and if only the buyer wants it enough to pay, that’s bad news too. 

i'm very sensitive about any exchange of remuneration for sex, be it dinner, a place to stay or outright cash.  i only want sex with a Guy Who wants me for the connection that happens through the sex.  For me, sex is a mutual connection of desire and i lose that connection if i know the guy wouldn't do it without money.  But that's just me, it's not a standard i think should be universal.

i get that there are guys who get turned on by being paid or paying for it, to me, that is different. i'm not into it, but i'm not opposed to it either.  

i have nothing against sex work or exchanging money for sex. i think my needs and desires should NEVER be imposed as a standard for others. I've been approached and asked for money in exchange for sex and i simply say, no thanks and wish the person good luck. 

Theft and extortion, black mail, those are different issues. 

[hntnhole]

14 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said:

meaning you feel entitled to sit in judgment of someone else’s choices in which you may also indulge

First, thanks for your well thought out responses to this interesting topic. 

Per the above quote, it's the initial act of some public figure (who is also an active gay, actively having gay sex) demeaning, attacking, denigrating others who are also actively gay, and doing so in the full light of day.  That's the difference.  

Say you saw someone beat up some other person on the street, resulting in serious injury.  And ambulance comes.  The cops come.  They go door-to-door trying to get some information on the perp, in an effort to visit Justice upon the guy that administered the beating.  Would you tell the cops that no - you have no idea who it was, when you witnessed the beating and could at least give a description of the attacker?  Would the "I don't want to get involved" attitude be excusable?  

The initial act of brutality deserves - by it's very nature - Justice, even if there were some potential, unknown-to-you "reason" the injured party "deserved" the beating.  That would be for the Courts (i.e. Justice) to determine, wouldn't it?  Describing the assaulter wouldn't be tattling on, informing on the perp, it would be allowing each those two involved in the actual beating to have their issue heard in Court (again, Justice).  

By extension, when public figures who happen to be actively gay agitate publicly against their own kind, inciting hatred, which often leads to violent acts against the demeaned group, I see that as a completely different situation.  Outing those who attack me (and by extension, my community of 'out' gays) is not merely an opportunity to advance Justice, it's entirely reasonable, and should be no surprise to the initial attacker.  

When one lives in a glass house, and throws stones at others who live in the same glass houses, they deserve by any measure of Justice to have a rock or three thrown at their house in response.

This is my $0.02 worth, in a most interesting discussion.