A Clear and Present Danger

[ErosWired]

22 minutes ago, hntnhole said:

Well, don't use it.

Personally I never have. But once Trump turned the country’s politics into a dumpster fire, he used Twitter as a gallon jug to pour gasoline on it every fucking day and that affected my life whether I used Twitter or not. Now we can expect more of the same, with no hope of any sanity in moderation.

[hntnhole]

Let's look on the bright side:  Maybe, after stripping women's rights, voting rights, codifying repressions against "the other", nullifying gay rights, to get us out of their country they'll give us - oh - Puerto Rico ???  Some other Caribbean island?  Maybe a South-Sea Island (other than Wake) ???  And we could make laws that Breeding each other is expressly required, enshrined in our new, gay Constitution !!!  Think of the talent we have to draw upon to design our new National Flag !!!  Imagine the uniforms the cops will be required to wear ... the mind boggles ..... 

[BlackDude]

9 hours ago, fskn said:

@BlackDude, we'll have to agree to disagree. It doesn't seem that Thurgood Marshall, whose arguments against originalism anchor the editorial (if indeed you read the same editorial), represented groups (what groups?) that "can’t use their own arguments and agreements without always trying to make some comparison to what Black people have gone through."

It's not as if the editorialist, Charles M. Blow, equates the experience of seeking an abortion in a red state to being Black and a legal non-person as the founding fathers intended. He cites the legal non-personhood of Black people as just one example of a blindspot on the part of the founding fathers, and Dred Scott as just one example of the Supreme Court's history of regressive rulings. His other examples of regressive Supreme Court decisions have nothing in particular to do with Black people: forced sterilization of mentally ill people, internment of Japanese people during World War II, and upholding a sodomy law in Georgia as recently as 1986.

I would add that the focus of @hntnhole's thread, and also of the editorial I mentioned, is originalism, not race. Please consider leaving space for people to talk about originalism / keeping this thread on topic.

It might be a good idea to start a thread of your own where you could go into detail about your concern, which I think is that somehow the experiences of Black people are being misappropriated for purposes of criticizing the Supreme Court (?) or criticizing the Court's likely decision to eliminate the federal-level right to abortion. As a Black man myself, and because I enjoy learning about other people's perspectives, I'd be glad to hear more — in a separate thread.

Someone brought up Thurgodd Marshall and Dread Scott and I asked what was the relation to the topic. A response was given and I gave my opinion on the how the issues were related. I think I’m on topic and I don’t need to start a separate thread. Thanks tho. 

[BootmanLA]

21 hours ago, fskn said:

By way of example, I always realized that the deification of Ruth Bader Ginsburg was naïve. Of course I agreed with her writings, but Democrats ignored the reality that she, like all Supreme Court justices, lived completely apart from ordinary people, and had no firsthand knowledge of their struggles.

I have to disagree with part of this. Yes to the idea that we shouldn't have deified Ginsburg, but she DID have firsthand knowledge of ordinary peoples' struggles. Her father was a merchant (in the Depression, no less), her mother a worker in a garment factory (like many poor Jewish women of her day). Ginsburg was pushed hard to excel from an early age, precisely so that she COULD end up in better circumstances than her parents. Her mother died of cancer while Ginsburg was in high school, and her family was thus reduced to a single parent income. She married her husband the same year she finished college, She gave birth to (and took care of) her first child while her husband was undergoing compulsory military service; she nursed him through testicular cancer while they were both in law school (AND raising children).

So yes, she very much had firsthand knowledge of the struggles of ordinary people.

Did she forget some of those struggles? Perhaps. I can't point to anything in her writings that even hints at that, nor in any of her votes on the Court. What I WILL say (and what others have said) is that eventually, her ego - which had helped drive her to success after success amidst considerable adversity, including the contempt the legal profession had for female lawyers in the 1950's and 1960's - convinced her that she was essentially irreplaceable, or at least that there was no need to consider being replaced, despite her health problems and the certainty that, sooner or later, the Republicans were likely to win the White House again. 

[fskn]

 

13 hours ago, hntnhole said:

unless people of honesty, character, altruism, empathy and all the rest get out to VOTE, in every election: the down-ballot races are at least as crucial as the Presidential elections.  As Tip O'Neill famously said:  "All politics is local".

You are right, and thank you for this hopeful position.

9 hours ago, onlyraw said:

“A vote is not a valentine. You are not confessing your love for a candidate. It is a chess move for the world you want to live in.”

so yes I am sure there are some very good people in Maine who voted for Susan Collins with the understanding that the Republicans needed a few moderate voices- but Sen Collins is also one more vote for Majority Leader McConnell  (NOT a moderate voice)

So well said! Whether we are talking about politicians or about voters themselves, this gets at my point about how some Republicans are timid about showing their true colors. Don't be fooled! Differences are great, and I prefer it when Republicans are honest about their party's positions against abortion, birth control, homosexuality, etc.

11 hours ago, evilqueerpig said:

That's why shy of adding more judges to SCOTUS, we need to have a maximum time of service or mandatory retirement.  Granted, when our nation was founded, life expectancy was lower, so lifetime appointments didn't seem a bad thing.

I would favor a mandatory retirement age to create opportunities for more people to serve as Supreme Court justices, and to create more frequent opportunities for the politicians of the day to choose appointees. I would caution against arbitrary term limits, though. An unintended consequence of term limits is short-term decision-making. Much of the work of government is carried out over decades.

3 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

I have to disagree with part of this. Yes to the idea that we shouldn't have deified Ginsburg, but she DID have firsthand knowledge of ordinary peoples' struggles. Her father was a merchant (in the Depression, no less), her mother a worker in a garment factory

Thank you for this perspective. I didn't know her parents' occupations, but an account I read painted her as quite comfortable financially. (I do not intend this as a criticism. Judges as a group are well-paid.) The interviewer was surprised at how out-of-touch she seemed, which was perhaps due to the combination of her economic status and her intellect (of course exceptional). I got the impression (and it is nothing more than an impression) that she was the kind of person who had never, as an adult, had to do her own laundry, wait in line at a supermarket, worry about paying a bill, etc.

Just as I don't want to single out Texas for the sake of singling Texas out, I don't want to single out Ruth Bader Ginsburg for the sake of singling her out. I doubt Ginni irons Clarence's judicial robes, let alone that he does it himself. The difference is that Clarence Thomas doesn't appear on public art murals, that C.T. isn't a meme, and that, try as I might, I still haven't been able to get my hands on his limited edition bobblehead. The public isn't dumb enough to think that Clarence Thomas is their friend, but people went too far, I think, in identifying with Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Multiple journalists refer to a "cult of personality".

To me, Rose Bird was an example of a working judge. All but forgotten today, she was the first female Chief Justice on California's State Supreme Court. She was known for reading court filings herself, instead of relying on a big staff. She would apparently bake for her colleagues. (I mention this with trepidation. It is unfair to expect women to be office moms. Gay men might bake something to bring to work, but straight men are never expected to do so. What's significant here is that baking is an activity that regular people do. Others hire chefs.) Conservatives targeted Rose Bird for consistently blocking the death penalty. After she was recalled, she led a modest life, subsisting on a state pension. She no longer practiced law, but she did volunteer in the community — anonymously.

[BootmanLA]

10 hours ago, fskn said:

Thank you for this perspective. I didn't know her parents' occupations, but an account I read painted her as quite comfortable financially. (I do not intend this as a criticism. Judges as a group are well-paid.) The interviewer was surprised at how out-of-touch she seemed, which was perhaps due to the combination of her economic status and her intellect (of course exceptional). I got the impression (and it is nothing more than an impression) that she was the kind of person who had never, as an adult, had to do her own laundry, wait in line at a supermarket, worry about paying a bill, etc.

Just as I don't want to single out Texas for the sake of singling Texas out, I don't want to single out Ruth Bader Ginsburg for the sake of singling her out. I doubt Ginni irons Clarence's judicial robes, let alone that he does it himself. The difference is that Clarence Thomas doesn't appear on public art murals, that C.T. isn't a meme, and that, try as I might, I still haven't been able to get my hands on his limited edition bobblehead. The public isn't dumb enough to think that Clarence Thomas is their friend, but people went too far, I think, in identifying with Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Multiple journalists refer to a "cult of personality".

I agree that the "cult of personality" around Ginsburg was, on balance, a bad thing. It may have contributed to her sense that she was irreplaceable and that a strategic retirement at a point she could be succeeded by a like-minded colleague was of no matter.

And yes, in her later years, after decades of practicing law, and her husband practicing law (and both of them teaching law in some pretty high-end institutions), they were financially very comfortable. But she wasn't born into that, nor was her husband. They were just in that generation that became adults after WWII, when higher ed money flowed like a river and where, with hard work AND a great deal of luck, you could pull yourself up from solidly working class to upper middle class or higher in one generation (which really isn't possible any more).

[hntnhole]

20 hours ago, onlyraw said:

“A vote is not a valentine. You are not confessing your love for a candidate. It is a chess move for the world you want to live in.”

Clear, blunt, a dash of humor, and to the point.  I'm asking permission to re-use it elsewhere.  OK?

[hntnhole]

10 hours ago, fskn said:

That's why shy of adding more judges to SCOTUS, we need to have a maximum time of service or mandatory retirement

Whatever the reforms turn out to be, it'll be better than the current disgraceful situation on the Supreme Court.  The Constitution has little to say about the fine points of control over the S.C.  No human construct stays the same for ever and ever and ever .... there's a lot of updating the country needs to get to.

[onlyraw]

2 hours ago, hntnhole said:

Clear, blunt, a dash of humor, and to the point.  I'm asking permission to re-use it elsewhere.  OK?

Yes - feel free to quote - as I just found it online (I forget where). But I think it is an important concept that we will really need to hammer home to some of our friends this fall

[Guest]

On 5/12/2022 at 1:56 AM, BlackDude said:

I’m not seeing how Dread Scott and Thurgood Marshall tie into this. 

Yeah it is a lot of fear mongering, theory, and some judge on the SCOTUS said that even if roe is overturned this will somehow not change or effect same sex marriage or LGB equality and rights at all, and I agree with you that the issue of abortion or roe being overturned by the SCOTUS is not comparable to the fight for civil rights and equal rights for black Americans.  Margaret Sanger the founder of planned parenthood was a notorious racist who promoted abortion to decrease the number of black people in the USA. She was a eugenicist.

[think before following links] https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/23/racism-eugenics-margaret-sanger-deserves-no-honors-column/5480192002/

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by TotalTop

[hntnhole]

On 5/12/2022 at 3:47 AM, fskn said:

Other Republicans are too shy to reveal their intentions to the rest of us.

For once, I beg your pardon:  "shyness" has nothing to do with it.  It's nothing less that utter, total shame they're trying to gloss over.  Shame, into which muck these office-seekers have willingly leapt into, peddling every sort of lie, misinformation, ignorance of the Constitution, will hopefully be the pit of shit they drown in come November.

[BBLincoln]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:54 PM, hntnhole said:

Well, don't use it.  I never joined Twitter or Facebook or any of those time-sponges.  I get enough crazy bullshit forwarded to me from friends to know if I'd partake, I'd turn into Don Quixote - railing against it all.  I'd much rather spend what computer-time I have here - on BZ - exchanging ideas, viewpoints with my Beautiful Barebacking Brothers !!!  

I've never used Twitter and from a long distance view from across the pond then I never will.

I hated Trump's tweets and the damage they did. As for Musk then I hope he decides to back out as his supposed his freedom of speech platform will be out of control by minority elements who will manipulate the truth according to their warped minds.

I fear for all gays and others who in time will be affected unless the elephant is recaptured and it's historical narrow minded interpretation of the Constitution is placed back in it's box.

I've always voted but in the UK many don't. The result is a right wing Government slowly tearing apart all the good things gained such as the NHS using lots of PR and voting lethargy. I fear for the younger generation who could lose most if not all that's been gained.

Everyone in the States who possibly could be affected must vote before they're disenfranchised or affectedly by the Republicans. I agree with the above about taking action now before it's too late. Vote or lose what you've gained!

[Bymike]

I like to swallow.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bymike said:

I like to swallow.

Who doesn't?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BBLincoln said:

I've never used Twitter and from a long distance view from across the pond then I never will.

I hated Trump's tweets and the damage they did. As for Musk then I hope he decides to back out as his supposed his freedom of speech platform will be out of control by minority elements who will manipulate the truth according to their warped minds.

I fear for all gays and others who in time will be affected unless the elephant is recaptured and it's historical narrow minded interpretation of the Constitution is placed back in it's box.

I've always voted but in the UK many don't. The result is a right wing Government slowly tearing apart all the good things gained such as the NHS using lots of PR and voting lethargy. I fear for the younger generation who could lose most if not all that's been gained.

Everyone in the States who possibly could be affected must vote before they're disenfranchised or affectedly by the Republicans. I agree with the above about taking action now before it's too late. Vote or lose what you've gained!

Twitter and other social media are not real life and most people in the USA do not use it, go on it, or take what politicians from any party say on it seriously.  There are apparently lots of trolls, fake profiles, catphishers/scammers, and spammers on Twitter.