The Ethics of Outing.

[BootmanLA]

12 hours ago, ErosWired said:

So one must ask oneself, “How would I react if I were the one being outed?” How many people would shrug and say, “Meh - I’m good with it.” Precious few, I’d say. From this perspective, is it ethical to force someone into a situation if you would object to the same treatment? Objectively, and considered in isolation, it is not.

Well, if I were a closeted gay politician who works hard to block same-sex marriage, or adoption by gay people, or whatever, while cheating on my wife with other men, and I were asked "How would you feel about being outed?" of course I'm going to object. That doesn't mean my own (selfish) desire for privacy over this part of my life trumps exposure of the hypocrisy. In my view, you don't get to invoke the "this is a private matter" cover when you're working to harm others on the basis of THEIR private matters. You're making their private lives a public issue, so yours gets to be one too.

[viking8x6]

51 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

you don't get to invoke the "this is a private matter" cover when you're working to harm others on the basis of THEIR private matters. You're making their private lives a public issue, so yours gets to be one too.

^^^ SO MUCH THIS! ^^^

[viking8x6]

Well, it's about straight people, but this current article is quite relevant to our topic:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2023/09/19/southern-baptist-johnny-hunt-lawsuit/?utm_campaign=wp_evening_edition&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_evening

[ErosWired]

10 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

In my view, you don't get to invoke the "this is a private matter" cover when you're working to harm others on the basis of THEIR private matters. You're making their private lives a public issue, so yours gets to be one too

The colloquial expression for this, of course, is “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.”

[Bibttmmiami]

Ideally it wouldn’t matter. In reality, there is still a big stigma in society towards gay and bi men. Lesbians and bi girls are hot. Gay men are nasty or sick or whatever.  It’s wrong thinking, but it’s still out there. And if the wrong people in a person’s life find out he’s gay or bi, it could make their life very difficult and unpleasant. 
 

 

[Kayne]

qIts the simplicity of it all for me. 

With fame, one receives a platform. Its each Man's choice on how to use the one given. Use it for evil and well... 

Win stupid games...

If you're gonna make my life harder by deliberately making it  harder and or more dangerous to be who I am, I'm gonna revel your darkest secret  you want to blame.it on the edit? Not with me around, never that.

[ellentonboy]

On 9/18/2023 at 3:17 PM, hntnhole said:

None of these responses seem to reflect any "holier than thou" attitude, in my humble opinion.

As many threads seem to do, this one has evolved from one plain old regular guy sneaking off to the tubs, to a gay, closeted public figure using his/her public position to attack the same folks he/she sneaks off to have sex with, and that's what makes the difference from where the thread started, and where it evolved to.  

Rather, the responses in favor of a "situational ethics" issue reflect the instinct to serve justice upon someone whose soul is so corrupted, they have compromised the privacy they so noisily compromise in others.   If a closeted public figure rails against "the gays" in a public way, he or she is acting out his/her own self-hatred by condemning all the others like her/himself, which invites some measure of counter.  

I do not condone, and have never "outed" some regular guy - married and cheating - or cheating on a boyfriend - or anything similar.  The issue the above respondents are reacting to has evolved to addressing justice upon those who are one of us, yet seek to harm us.  I think it's healthier to be open and honest in my own interactions, but that's only my personal bent.  

That said, we're still buddies, yeah?

I understand there can be SOME legitimate reasons for outing someone.  I just took a look at the polling, and I see that posters seem to favor keeping a person's sexuality a private matter.

This subject hit's close to home with me, in a very random way. I have an "acquaintance" (fuck buddy) who met an elected official in a book store in Washington state.  That elected official was dressed in drag.  My "acquaintance" decided that the $1300 they agreed on for sex was not enough, and he wanted something like $30.000.    The official refused to pay.  So here we have an elected, married official who had to come out to his family, resign his position and lose his wife and kids.  Now, he wasn't responsible for that, my "friend" plead guilty to a felony in Washington state and now, because of that, no one will hire him.  He lived in Florida for about a year  where I got to know him, and again, his background kept him from finding gainful employment.  I never asked him during sex whey he did "what he did".  But when I googled his name, sure enough, there he was with his attorney being interviewed by Dan Abrams and some other conservative (?) talk show host.

The fact that he tried to extort money ruins everything.  Now had he gone to a publication like "Out" or the "Advocate" and mentioned the two exchanged money for sex, I might feel differently.  His life is ruined (well, in my eyes it is), the elected official has lost plenty, so no one wins.

Is this a "normal" outing?  No, it's not.  But if my buddy has just kept the $1300 they agreed upon and went on with his life, everything would be different today.  

[meetme]

Money should NEVER be involved with sex.  If it’s $1300 or $30,000. Not even $3.00. If you don’t want to be with each other, it can’t be a good experience, and if only the buyer wants it enough to pay, that’s bad news too. 

[hntnhole]

22 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

In my view, you don't get to invoke the "this is a private matter" cover when you're working to harm others on the basis of THEIR private matters. You're making their private lives a public issue, so yours gets to be one too.

Well said.  What's good for the gander, is good for the (other) gander too.  

[NWUSHorny]

1 hour ago, meetme said:

Money should NEVER be involved with sex.  If it’s $1300 or $30,000. Not even $3.00. If you don’t want to be with each other, it can’t be a good experience, and if only the buyer wants it enough to pay, that’s bad news too. 

I am in full agreement with this, and it is also worth noting that if money is involved it becomes a crime in most states. Once a crime is involved it becomes both a legal and ethical matter.

[hntnhole]

11 hours ago, Bibttmmiami said:

In reality, there is still a big stigma in society towards gay and bi men.

That's true, and more true in certain areas.  Largely rural locations, "conservative" States in particular.  This is most likely why there are such substantial GLTB+ populations in major metro areas.  When someone comes to terms with their "different-ness" from the majority of the population, it's no wonder that they 'get outta Dodge' as soon as they can, and move to a more non-judgemental area where they can live their lives more freely.  

One happy result of that migration is, there's more prospective partners per several square blocks in a large city (in the gay neighborhoods) than existed in an entire county where they grew up.  One unhappy result is, the population of wherever they ditched is an even more concentrated population of willful ignorance.  Then, the remaining repressive residents* start to complain that they can't "keep" their brightest and best in the area, completely ignorant of the reasons why.  

The resulting concentration of repressions in some areas is merely one of the issues holding back the development of Justice for all citizens of our nation.   Worse, I don't see any remedy on the horizon of our national future.  That doesn't mean we don't continue to press for Justice, but it may mean that the Moral Arc of the Universe may be changing course for the worse, at least here in the U.S. 

Fight back, brothers (and sisters), before our gains advancing Justice for all begin to dissolve before our very eyes.    

*admittedly, alliteration is one of my favorite literary devices

[T-Girl-Cumdumpster]

one of the reasons i have always gotten fucked by a lot of straight guys and married men is they know they can use me easy and have the dirtiest, cum draining sex they ever had and nobody ever has to find out they fucked a faggot or a t-girl bareback. i learned early that straight boys were willing to let me suck their cocks or fuck me once they realized i would do it no questions asked and i would keep it a secret. one time i walked past a group of 7 straight boys who hung out together and realized i had sucked off every single one of them and all but 2 of them had fucked me. i didnt say a word to them and they didnt say a word to me. the next day i was naked in a mall restroom with 2 of them fucking me.  they said they met me there to thank me for not acting like i knew them in front of their buddies. thats when i first realized how many men were willing to fuck me as long as nobody found out they even know me. shortly afterward i started offering men online apartment pump n dumps with me blindfolded so i dont even know who they are or what they look like. always funny seeing a straight guy who fucked me when they're out in public with their mom or their wife or their kids. i recently had a man follow me into a public restroom and fuck me in a stall while his wife and daughter waited outside the door. his son actually came into the restroom to piss and he never broke stride. just told him he would be out in a minute, finished up like a champ, then pulled out, let me suck him clean, washed his dick with soap and left

[ErosWired]

2 hours ago, hntnhole said:

but it may mean that the Moral Arc of the Universe may be changing course for the worse, at least here in the U.S. 

The Universe moves not in arcs, but in circles. Even the swing of a pendulum is a kind of cyclic motion. It may be that the tide of ignorance and repression is rising, but tides invariably ebb. These people may hold sway in the small circle of the moment; every dog has his day. But the direction of the greater circle of the age, the one in which the rising generations will be the deciding force, is one in which tolerance and acceptance are more widespread. This is the last, desperate howl of passing generations who do not want their world to change, and their battle is hopeless - change is the only constant. In time, the world will be dominated by people of my children’s generation, and if they are any guide, these dark days will not stand.

[BootmanLA]

On 9/20/2023 at 8:48 AM, ellentonboy said:

I understand there can be SOME legitimate reasons for outing someone.  I just took a look at the polling, and I see that posters seem to favor keeping a person's sexuality a private matter.

This subject hit's close to home with me, in a very random way. I have an "acquaintance" (fuck buddy) who met an elected official in a book store in Washington state.  That elected official was dressed in drag.  My "acquaintance" decided that the $1300 they agreed on for sex was not enough, and he wanted something like $30.000.    The official refused to pay.  So here we have an elected, married official who had to come out to his family, resign his position and lose his wife and kids.  Now, he wasn't responsible for that, my "friend" plead guilty to a felony in Washington state and now, because of that, no one will hire him.  He lived in Florida for about a year  where I got to know him, and again, his background kept him from finding gainful employment.  I never asked him during sex whey he did "what he did".  But when I googled his name, sure enough, there he was with his attorney being interviewed by Dan Abrams and some other conservative (?) talk show host.

The fact that he tried to extort money ruins everything.  Now had he gone to a publication like "Out" or the "Advocate" and mentioned the two exchanged money for sex, I might feel differently.  His life is ruined (well, in my eyes it is), the elected official has lost plenty, so no one wins.

Is this a "normal" outing?  No, it's not.  But if my buddy has just kept the $1300 they agreed upon and went on with his life, everything would be different today.  

But that's just it. This isn't about outing; this is about extortion. "Pay me X or I'll do Y" isn't about Y nearly so much as it's about the demand for X.

And I notice you didn't mention the politics of this elected official; I'm guessing that they weren't the reason for the exposure, but instead the refusal to pay was. Assuming the official wasn't actively working to harm the community, yes, it was a nasty thing to do to him, and your greedy "friend" (or however you want to characterize him) did a shitty thing. Personally, if I found out someone I knew did something that awful, I'd cut off contact with him, but that's just me and my standards.

[BootmanLA]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:11 AM, meetme said:

Money should NEVER be involved with sex.  If it’s $1300 or $30,000. Not even $3.00. If you don’t want to be with each other, it can’t be a good experience, and if only the buyer wants it enough to pay, that’s bad news too. 

I'm going to disagree here, only because I think sex, like any other personal service, ought to be up for negotiation. What's the difference between a woman who accepts $500 for agreeing to let a man fuck her, and a woman whose boyfriend gives her $500 gifts on occasion to show his appreciation?

When I pay for a dinner, sometimes I'm just trying to stave off hunger, and sometimes I really, really am craving the meal I'm ordering and will savor every minute of it. The fact that there's a commercial side to that transaction doesn't change the fact that I very much want the meal.

And looked at from the opposite perspective, sometimes the chef in a restaurant is preparing a meal because he truly loves expressing himself with food that brings joy to the customer. Sometimes he's doing it to make sure he can pay rent. I don't think the fact that his restaurant charges for the "joyful" meal negates his pleasure in doing a great job.

I'm sure there are house painters who truly love the work they do. I suspect the vast majority do not. If I'm paying to get my house painted, I'm not sure I really care how they feel about it as long as they do the work well. 

There are men (not many) I would happily pay a significant (to me) sum of money for sex, and as long as he did as good a job as I think he'd do, I don't really think I'd care if he "didn't want to be with" me. People sometimes have sex just to get off, and you know what? it's not always bad.