Religion and gay love

[Sharp-edge]

I have a colleague who is the sweetest person I've met. He's also very cute. It's inspiring how much he loves his patients and his job. I always thought he was kinda religious, but not too religious. I mean most Greeks do some Christian things (go to the church in some big days etc) but that is more like something we do because we've get used to. To make a long story short, after many events that I won't analyze, following a difficult shift he ended up crying in my arms. We talked and talked and he said something shocking to me. He's gay but he's not having any sex (or anything) because it's a sin. I think my brain made a soft reset when I heard that. I can't believe that a person who has studied a freaking science for 6 years, and in fact no any science but medicine, can believe such a thing. I've also got the impression that the reason of his break down is that he's into me but that's not my point. This wonderful man is tormenting himself because somebody told him that he's gonna burn in hell for all eternity? And what that sin would be? Loving someone can send you to hell? I really can't accept this, it must be april's fool or something.

[ErosWired]

It’s very difficult to have been raised in a household with strong beliefs of a certain sort and then find that your nature - and your reason - are incompatible with those beliefs. It becomes a source of acute psychological distress until the person either dismisses the incompatible beliefs, or finds a way to reconcile the beliefs with his nature and reason.

For many years I was like your friend, to the extreme that I honestly - true story - believed God would strike me with lightning or something if I had sex. I was astonished when, the day I lost my virginity, He did not. Ultimately, my internal war became so terrible that something had to be done. I made a decision then, that God was not irrational; God had made me with a need for sex; it would be irrational to punish me for satisfying a need he put in me; therefore, it was not against His will. Furthermore, Christ, who is the ultimate authority on Christianity after all, said absolutely nothing - zero - about homosexuality. Therefore anyone who suggests that Christ disapproves is offering a secondhand assumption. Christ was mainly into loving, forgiving, and not judging.

Your friend has two things to contend with: His inner battle with his conscience, and his fear about how others will view him. Even if he resolves a fear that God will judge him, a fear that man will judge him may prevent him from living freely. It is actually the judgment of man that constrains us; God, as far as I can tell, does not strike people with lightning.

[NWUSHorny]

I suspect that it is common for people that are deeply steeped in religion to try to suppress their gay urges, and hate themselves after they give into and act on their biological urges. It isn't just gays that develop all sorts of inhibitions and restrictions on sex that come from religious indoctrination, straight people tend to do the same. 

[120DaysofSodom]

I can understand why religion is so popular given how much easier it is to believe than it is to think as that requires too much time and effort as opposed to having ones morals be spoonfed to them on a plate, but cant understand how anybody that is gay would willingly choose to follow the teachings of an ideology of hate that preaches victimizing minorities and even killing them for their lifestyle. Its in the scripture, and the real danger in all of this is that it is all interpretative, and so who is the actual authority on the scriptures? This is where religion ends up becoming dangerous especially when fused with politics because it then drives people to vote in favor of laws that persecute minorities, or even commit murder in the name of their religion because of what they have been conditioned to believe about the afterlife. All of this based an an absurd transparent raft of lies that the creator of the universe came down to a desert on planet earth to lay down laws about sodomy, shellfish and pork. And when you look at whats out there it just isnt in proportion. The whole premise of original sin, that we are born with something wrong with us and the only way to fix it is to run to this god and beg his forgiveness, is sick and twisted and is child abuse, and dont get me started on the genital mutilation. Hacking off a childs foreskin is a bizarre social norm now in thanks to these death cults. Perhaps you can introduce this fellow to some worthwhile literature by the likes of Carl Sagan, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, etc. Even the Marquis de Sade, despite his depravities, was actually quite brilliant and loathed religion. Some worthwhile philosophy actually comes forth through his encyclopedic novels of perversions.

Once this guy becomes unafraid of what he has been conditioned to fear since before he was even capable of thinking for himself, he will embrace every day of life for what it is - a gift that he happened to burst into consciousness at this exact nexus of space and time and is here for a brief moment before he (most likely) returns to a state of unconsciousness like the billions and billions of years that were there before he happened to be born.

[hntnhole]

3 hours ago, ErosWired said:

Christ was mainly into loving, forgiving, and not judging

Thank you for the response, ErosWired.

What did Jesus almost certainly say, and more than once?

1. Feed the hungry.   2. House the homeless.   3. Clothe the naked.   4. Visit the sick.  5. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.  There are more attributions, of course, but these 5 are direct quotes retold in several of the Gospels.  

None of that requires belief in magic.  None of that requires suspension of reason. None of that requires anything more than basic, human decency - that still, small, voice within each of us.  

[hntnhole]

3 hours ago, NWUSHorny said:

I suspect that it is common for people that are deeply steeped in religion to try to suppress their gay urges, and hate themselves after they give into and act on their biological urges.

I wonder how many thought-leaders we have lost (or never even heard from), due to the repressions of Organized Religion - the Ancient Enemy.  

In school, I had to take jobs as musician in a number of churches (a night of beers with the guys wasn't cheap), and the pastor of one of them was a totally repressed gay man.  It's hard to describe what a shadow of a man he'd become when he gave in to the repressions.  His wife was a corpulent unhappy shadow of a woman,  His kids were washed-out looking timid little bundles of nerves.  It was a truly tragic sight.  And he would just rail against gays from the pulpit.  For what, I wonder.  To be part of that which ruined his life?  One Sunday it just got to be more than I cared to listen to, and I just walked out - and I never did find out who played the closing hymn, because it sure as hell wasn't me.  

 

[myDNA4u]

As a life long Ateist it's hard for me to even fathom what for me are such ridiculous and self destructive thoughts. While I'm willing and do respect folks with strong religious beliefs as long as they make them a better, kinder, more tolerant, accepting and loving person, far too often they lead to hate, bigotry, intolerance and even more tragically war and death.

Truly there is nothing in the New Testament prohibiting homosexuality. Indeed if a man named Jesus did actually exist for which there is absolutely zero proof anywhere outside of the Bible, he sounds kind of gay to me. He didn't want sex with Mary Magdalen who sounds like a hot tramp and he spent his time hanging out with 12 guys and "washing their feet". Sounds like he had a homoerotic foot fetish at the least.

[Heir2012]

Religion is a complex thing. I know there are several churches who accept the LGBTQIA+ community. Some don't. There are just SO MANY types of beliefs under the umbrella of religion that it is a constantly evolving aspect of life. Sometimes people have beliefs but not a religion.

Yes, unfortunately, many torment themselves as you described. I know some people personally who have done so. If you can be that shoulder to cry on and that ear to listen, you'll be a considerable help. Don't immediately jump to trying to sleep with him. That could actually cause a wall to be built or emotional damage to occur. It may take time. Then again, everyone is different. 

[WillingRawVerse]

This is what I went through before really clarifying that I'm Bi. Grew up in a religious home, parents still are, I am as well, but I can't deny what I feel. And that's sex with men, women, and trans. 

[Loveitraw]

I work in a scientific environment.  As I am not a person of faith once upon a time I used to question why so many representatives of many different faiths are drawn to science. The answer it seems is fairly simple. Why not?

There is no real disconnect between belief and learning unless you are under a very strict state regime. Science, and medicine in particular, are as much about helping people as they are about seeking answers.  Its easy to be blinkered into thinking anyone who has faith is some kind of zealot when the truth is most people are just people. Wanting to get through each day just like everyone else.

The strict and dogmatic type who do cause problems are unfortunately also out there and they cause the kind of turmoil your colleague is suffering. Rather than question his faith however, which can create bigger problems for someone already hurting, point them to asupport group within that community. They do exist and there are lgbtq+ faith groups that can be found to offer support if it is looked for.

Being dismissive of faith is easy when you have none, I have been guilty of it myself many times. However when something makes up so large a part of a persons life and personality you cannot underestimate the damage it can do to mock it or, worse still, take it from them.

[Sharp-edge]

8 hours ago, ErosWired said:

would strike me with lightning or something

that would be Zeus, but he's really okay with sex (joking)

 

8 hours ago, ErosWired said:

Your friend has two things to contend with: His inner battle with his conscience, and his fear about how others will view him. Even if he resolves a fear that God will judge him, a fear that man will judge him may prevent him from living freely.

I can't believe that this amazing guy has been through all this, for literally no reason. I'm sure he would have loved and been loved.

[hntnhole]

15 hours ago, myDNA4u said:

for which there is absolutely zero proof anywhere outside of the Bible

I agree with much of your post. 

Interestingly though, a Roman-era ruin in Palestine was excavated a few years ago, dating from that period. Most of Pilate's (full) name was found inscribed on one of the column's bases.  If not for Pilate's presence in the New Testament, he would be completely forgotten - but there actually is a non-Christian bit proof that Pilate was indeed present in the area, and at that time.  I saw a photo of it in Architectural Review a few years ago; it was quite clearly him.  

16 hours ago, myDNA4u said:

homoerotic foot fetish

Actually though, it was a common sign of respect to wash someone's feet.  They all wore sandals, the roads were all dirt or sand, so feet got really grungy back then.  Thus, if/when Jesus performed that act - it proves only that his humanity, his humbleness, was completely intact. 

To the rest, it is somewhat interesting that whoever he particularly "loved" got washed away too ... which would be John, author of the 4th Gospel.  Less certainly the other two attributed to him.

15 hours ago, Heir2012 said:

Sometimes people have beliefs but not a religion

They're the fortunate ones, who sensed the presence of bullshit in the religion, but also sensed the intrinsic value of the original Message.  

 

14 hours ago, Loveitraw said:

Being dismissive of faith is easy when you have none

The question though, is faith in what ?  Faith in the basic goodness of humanity?  Faith in a basic wickedness?  Faith in magic?  Faith in reason?  Faith in one's intellectual ability to reason? 

Faith, in and of itself, is an abstract noun, which means nothing with out the noun associated with faith.  We can have faith in this, faith in that, faith that the sun will come up in the morning.  Thus, it's the subject of that faith - whatever it may be - that earns either respect or dismissal in our minds.  I have faith that the sun will come up, and my car will start in the morning.  I believe that being as faithful to the original Message of Jesus, as well as other magnificently moral teachers throughout history is an important part of living my life.

However, I have no faith in magic.  Thus, "faith" compounded with required belief in magic, makes no sense to me at all.  

[tallslenderguy]

Wow, i think there are some great and thoughtful responses here. i'll throw my hat(s) into the ring as well. Some random thoughts.

i think religious belief is emotional, not rational. Oh sure, there's all sorts of rationale used by the religious... they even have a name for it "apologetics," (and there's a lot to apologize for), but i think religions power is emotionally driven.  If it's rooted in emotion, scientific education is not necessarily going to undo that.  Ethnocentricity drives entire nations to war and killing those who believe otherwise. i think religion is just a form of ethnocentricity that i think also has precepts woven into culture in general, even the parts that claim to be secular.  

i don't think university and education necessarily trump emotional disposition. One of my sons is literally a rocket scientist working at NASA, the other  has two masters degrees, one of them is in writing and rhetoric.  They're both brilliant, and both of them disowned me as "rebelling against 'God'" when i stepped away from fundamentalism, came out to them as gay and divorced their mom.  In their defense, we home schooled both of them and they were given strong religious roots.  i think they are slowly seeing, but it's hard. i was raised fundamentalist christian.  i knew i am attracted to males from an early age. At puberty when i put a name on it (homosexuality), it never occurred to me that i could accept being gay. i knew what 'God' had to say about Guys fucking guys, and who was i to disagree? i believed it was a choice.

It's way more complex than that, but it took me 40 years to process out of the emotional disposition that those beliefs were not "God." They were peoples ideas about 'God.'  Look at some of the comments and see how many allude to the bible as a source of what 'God" or "Jesus" said.  The bible is a self authorizing document. We don't accept that kind of authority with other  stuff, but somehow, the bible often gets a pass as an authoritative resource when quoting guys like Jesus.  We say "Jesus taught love," but we're basing that on what a self authorizing book has written in it.

Not only are the many denominations of Judeo-Christian  based on individual peoples read of their scriptures... the scriptures themselves are individual peoples writings. 

Say this stuff to a fundamentalist (fundamentalist anything), and watch them glaze over. Or, vehemently insist that you just don't see. Because, it's not a matter of belief based on rationale, it's conditioned emotional disposition rationalized.  

 

[ErosWired]

3 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

The bible is a self authorizing document. We don't accept that kind of authority with other  stuff, but somehow, the bible often gets a pass as an authoritative resource when quoting guys like Jesus.  We say "Jesus taught love," but we're basing that on what a self authorizing book has written in it.

The Bible is the Word of God … as written down by individual humans, translated by other individual humans, tweaked by still other individual humans, contents selected and voted on by other groups of individual humans, re-visioned by other individual humans, and interpreted individually by every individual human who reads it (though he’s usually only reading parts cherrypicked for him to read by other individual humans.

As an undergraduate I took a class in the History of the Old Testament. In later years, I explained to my father, who asked me a question about the history of the Bible as a book, “If you want to continue to believe the Bible as you were raised to believe it, you cannot study the Bible as a historical or literary document.” Because the facts about the book are incompatible with what people want to believe. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. If you want to blame someone, you can start with the Council of Nicaea and King James I, but there’s plenty of blame to go around.

Which is ironic, really, considering that the Bible tells us the one thing God forbids above all else…is the changing of his Word.

[tallslenderguy]

1 hour ago, ErosWired said:

The Bible is the Word of God …

 

 

i know, it's says so right there in the Bible.