BootmanLA Posted August 21 Report Share Posted August 21 7 minutes ago, SomewhereonNeptune said: This happens a lot more than you think it does. The guy at the adult book/movie store. The older fellow cruising. The guy that looks straight and wears a wedding band. For them, it may be an understanding between partners, one partners no longer having an interest, or the couple who realize that they're more compatible as intimate friends without sex and seek that outside of their relationship. Hell, the apps are full of guys who want 'discreet' situations or 'cannot host', clear signs that there could be such an understanding in place ('could be' as the operative term). You're spot on in that cheating could be the least bad option if everything else is in order, and I know a few in that situation. Unfortunately, there's still a huge bias between men being bisexual being accepted versus acceptance of bisexual women. So coming out might be honest but not the best option. I agree that if such an understanding is in place, then there is (by definition) no cheating. Assuming, of course, that the "understanding" covers the particular circumstances. In my experience, such "understandings" are rare; the only "understanding" is that the guy "understands" he wants a different kind of sex than the one he signed up for, and is willing to risk hurting his wife by cheating. And part of that "least bad" option, to me, is a requirement that the guy at least TRY to come to that understanding, which means laying cards on the table. If he's hiding his sexual desires from her because he thinks she's going to freak out and want a divorce, then discreetly sleeping with men is NOT "least bad". "Least bad" would be recognizing he isn't the right guy for her, letting her go, and moving on with his life. But that's difficult, and men are frequently loath to give up something stable (even if he got it under pretense and has to lie constantly to keep it) in favor of cutting his losses and trying for a more honest situation for himself. Part of that is because men, historically, seldom paid any serious price for those kinds of indiscretions. If getting divorced after having an affair was as devastating to a man's social status as it generally was for a woman, there might not be quite so much an asymmetry between how men and women are treated in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hntnhole Posted August 21 Report Share Posted August 21 3 hours ago, tallslenderguy said: Hiding from someone who we are supposedly in an intimate relationship with, to me, makes the relationship itself sort of a farce. Agreed. At the very least, it puts limits on the depth of the relationship on the part of the cheater. As you point out, most of us are wired to share sex with a lot of men. That truth should always be factored into any (m2m) relationship. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallslenderguy Posted August 21 Report Share Posted August 21 1 hour ago, BootmanLA said: Need to be? Of course not. If only everyone had such clarity! 1 hour ago, BootmanLA said: Maybe, maybe not. You are (I perceive) an introspective man, and I don't doubt that this is how you view sex. But the term "navel gazing" exists for a reason; we can't project our biases onto everyone else and assume that if sex is never "just physical" for you, it can never be "just physical" for others. I know some guys for whom sex is never anything BUT "just physical." And I know others for whom it's "just physical" with some partners and "something more" with others. That's why i have qualifiers like "for me," "i see" and "i think," throughout that paragraph. i don't think this can be "known" or proven either way. So i think to say "i know" on either side of the fence is an overstep, and a projected bias. i still believe i am correct, i don't think we can separate sex from other parts of our being, our emotions, the desires/needs that motivate or drive us to have sex in the first place, whether we are aware of those drivers or not. But, i realize that's just what "i think," not a universal truth. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomewhereonNeptune Posted August 21 Report Share Posted August 21 3 hours ago, BootmanLA said: I agree that if such an understanding is in place, then there is (by definition) no cheating. Assuming, of course, that the "understanding" covers the particular circumstances. In my experience, such "understandings" are rare; the only "understanding" is that the guy "understands" he wants a different kind of sex than the one he signed up for, and is willing to risk hurting his wife by cheating. And part of that "least bad" option, to me, is a requirement that the guy at least TRY to come to that understanding, which means laying cards on the table. If he's hiding his sexual desires from her because he thinks she's going to freak out and want a divorce, then discreetly sleeping with men is NOT "least bad". "Least bad" would be recognizing he isn't the right guy for her, letting her go, and moving on with his life. @BootmanLA, I'm assuming you might not have considered that the MSCs already understand that their love, affection, and relationship is not nor has ever been based solely on "sex", and there are MSCs where for various reasons one partner is no longer interested in intercourse (health, lack of sexual desires, medical conditions, you could go on). I've heard and know some MSCs who have an 'understanding' that because of the sexual desire differences and out of respect for their relationship, they choose not to parade it around the other partner. I can agree with you that as needs evolve one partner may have recognized they've suppressed their sexual desires for a same sex relationship and wants to explore that. Meanwhile, the abstaining partner may find even the notion of gay sex repugnant (some like vanilla, some like rocky road, the famous ice cream place serves 31 flavors), leaving the non-abstaining partner unable to be as honest as they'd like without truly hurting the other partner. Love doesn't always translate to sex, sometimes it transcends. There's a few folks on here that have outlined their situations, @Poz2play immediately springs to mind as he's shared his situation many times. But I otherwise agree with you. The MSCs I knew of sent up trial balloons and had them shot down. People stay in relationships for many reasons. So I'd say they can't be faulted for the attempt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomewhereonNeptune Posted August 21 Report Share Posted August 21 4 hours ago, BootmanLA said: Except, of course, the wife who gets the STI or HIV from the cheating husband. Or just the emotional devastation from finding out her husband is cheating on her. Totally agree. If you're truly considering the other partner's feelings and well-being, you should never do something that jeopardizes them. I've actually spoken to some guys who are on the slope of bug chasing and show zero consideration for the partner still in their life. One viewed it a twisted sort of revenge on her deep immersion into religion. Another found out, they discussed, and both soon became involved in the same twisted activities together as the outcome (which I think is the remote exception to your statement and the proverbial norm). 4 hours ago, BootmanLA said: To me, though, it's simpler: cheating in a relationship is like cheating in a board or card game. It's breaking the rules that the participants have agreed to. Those rules don't have to be the same for every game, or for every grouping of players; games like Monopoly, for instance, have alternative sets of rules available right in the rule book to make games more or less challenging. There are so many variations of poker and solitaire that you could fill a small town public library with publications on different sets of rules. But the important thing is that they all DO have rules, and it's pretty crappy to be playing by one set of rules and find out that the other player(s) are using an entirely different rulebook. Boardgame? Try life itself. In business, I can think of too many times where most players are guided by one set of rules, and another class -- let's call them management or leadership -- is privileged to avoid those rules and plays by a different set. Casinos and Congress do it all the time. 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKSub24 Posted August 21 Report Share Posted August 21 I have been married to my wife for 25 yrs but have not had sex with her for the past 20 years. She has no idea i meet men. I meet men for sex and nothing more than that. I am on prep and am regularly tested. I am not looking for a relationship with a man and I make my situation quite clear before i meet anyone. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellentonboy Posted August 21 Report Share Posted August 21 I can't believe, with all the topics discussed on this Forum, that this subject has gotten so much attention and become so ugly and contentious. Some people need to get a life and stop being so judgmental. Married men have been having sex with gay men for years, in case you didn't know. My feeling are this, if they ask you, and you decline, then that is your business. But don't think there isn't another guy around the corner that will say yes.... Some people need to get off their "high horse". 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieatcumholes Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 On 8/20/2024 at 11:44 AM, Sharp-edge said: Once it was a fantasy of many. Now you get to hear nasty comments that he's a cheater and whatever and blah blah. But in my mind, he's just a horny guy who needs another horny guy to take good care of him. Is it thad bad? I've read a few (but not all) responses. I've had sex with married (to a woman) men before as both a bottom and as a top. My stance has always been that HE was the one who swore fidelity to her, not me. (To me, a homewrecker is someone who intentionally sets out to negatively impact the relationship. If he is actively searching for someone to cheat with, HE is the homewrecker, not me. But I know that not everyone agrees with that.) But then I freely admit that I don't have the best role models for fidelity or the sanctity of marriage in my own parents. Whether bottom or top, I looked at it as me providing him with something he wasn't getting at home. (I'm pretty sure that in every case they sought me out and not the other way around...) All that said, my advice would be for each person to decide what their conscience will allow them to do, and do just that. BUT don't use whatever your conscience decides for YOU as a barometer for how you judge people who do something different. As I like to say, "I don't want anybody else to live my life for me, so I shouldn't try to live anybody's else life for them..." 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falls727 Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 This is a very complicated discussion because there are so many variables at play: the moral, the ethical, the physical, the emotional. I could write pages about the implications of this act, but I will forgo such a treatise. From a personal position, I don’t like to share what is mine so I would respect the same in another’s relationship. I am not passing judgement on anyone because each person is entitled to their beliefs and choices. I am also turned-off by the thought of having a cock inside me that was inside a woman. Each to their own and enjoy life. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BootmanLA Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 20 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said: @BootmanLA, I'm assuming you might not have considered that the MSCs already understand that their love, affection, and relationship is not nor has ever been based solely on "sex", and there are MSCs where for various reasons one partner is no longer interested in intercourse (health, lack of sexual desires, medical conditions, you could go on). I've heard and know some MSCs who have an 'understanding' that because of the sexual desire differences and out of respect for their relationship, they choose not to parade it around the other partner. I've known such people too, and of course I agree that where such an understanding exists, there's no cheating, because the partners have agreed, even if only implicitly, that such behavior isn't against their rules. But I've known far more such couples where the wife has no such understanding at all, even though the husband operates as though he did. Sometimes that's a matter of the wife being deliberately blind to what he's up to; sometimes he's just good at covering his tracks. 20 hours ago, SomewhereonNeptune said: I can agree with you that as needs evolve one partner may have recognized they've suppressed their sexual desires for a same sex relationship and wants to explore that. Meanwhile, the abstaining partner may find even the notion of gay sex repugnant (some like vanilla, some like rocky road, the famous ice cream place serves 31 flavors), leaving the non-abstaining partner unable to be as honest as they'd like without truly hurting the other partner. But here's the thing: the "exploring" partner is going to hurt his "abstaining" partner either way. Either he's honest with her, and hurts her by inferring sex with her isn't enough for him; or he cheats, and when he gets caught, or can't hide it any longer, he hurts her by revealing that he's been deceiving her all along. My view is that if hurt is inevitable, do it sooner, get it over with, and then let the other partner decide whether she wants to continue in the relationship "as is", or end it as amicably as possible and go on to live their lives with more honesty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BootmanLA Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 20 hours ago, MKSub24 said: I have been married to my wife for 25 yrs but have not had sex with her for the past 20 years. She has no idea i meet men. I meet men for sex and nothing more than that. I am on prep and am regularly tested. I am not looking for a relationship with a man and I make my situation quite clear before i meet anyone. Here's the thing: I can see staying with a spouse for a long time without having sex for any number of reasons (having kids together to raise, general contentment despite lack of sexual compatibility/interest, financial interdependence, whatever). My own partner and I (together 20 years) are at that point, and a lot of gay relationships I know end up here as well. But I can't imagine being in this situation and lying/hiding the fact that I have sexual activity outside the relationship. He doesn't know details and don't want to know (not because it would hurt him to know, he just doesn't really care; it would be like detailing to him each time I clip my toenails). And I don't want to know about his, either, though if he told me, I wouldn't be bothered by it. But we at least made it clear that this outside the relationship activity was okay, and what sorts of ground rules we might have. I can't imagine deceiving him because to me, that negates the entire reason for staying in the relationship in the first place. If we have to hide things from each other like that, what's the point in staying together? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BootmanLA Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 20 hours ago, ellentonboy said: I can't believe, with all the topics discussed on this Forum, that this subject has gotten so much attention and become so ugly and contentious. Some people need to get a life and stop being so judgmental. Married men have been having sex with gay men for years, in case you didn't know. My feeling are this, if they ask you, and you decline, then that is your business. But don't think there isn't another guy around the corner that will say yes.... Some people need to get off their "high horse". People have been doing all sorts of horrible things for a long time, too, but we judge on those issues. The rule of thumb I have is: can anyone else get hurt by this? Am I willing to be complicit by helping someone else hurt a third party? In the case of cheating spouses, absolutely someone can get hurt. So without clear understandings that it's okay, in this particular relationship, for the guy to do this (or even that his spouse has clearly indicated he/she doesn't want to know), I'm not going to be involved in perpetuating that hurt. Obviously some people just don't give a damn about hurting other people. I find that selfish and sad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BootmanLA Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 12 hours ago, Ieatcumholes said: All that said, my advice would be for each person to decide what their conscience will allow them to do, and do just that. BUT don't use whatever your conscience decides for YOU as a barometer for how you judge people who do something different. As I like to say, "I don't want anybody else to live my life for me, so I shouldn't try to live anybody's else life for them..." So... I wouldn't fuck my underaged kids, if I had them. But it's fine if someone else does his own, and I "shouldn't try to live anybody's else life for them"? I wouldn't steal from my friends' houses if I go visit, but it's fine if someone else does, because I shouldn't judge? I could go on and on, but it boils down to: Do we give everyone a pass for behavior we ourselves wouldn't do, no matter how offensive or harmful it might be, in the name of "not trying to live anybody else's life for them"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellentonboy Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 46 minutes ago, BootmanLA said: People have been doing all sorts of horrible things for a long time, too, but we judge on those issues. The rule of thumb I have is: can anyone else get hurt by this? Am I willing to be complicit by helping someone else hurt a third party? In the case of cheating spouses, absolutely someone can get hurt. So without clear understandings that it's okay, in this particular relationship, for the guy to do this (or even that his spouse has clearly indicated he/she doesn't want to know), I'm not going to be involved in perpetuating that hurt. Obviously some people just don't give a damn about hurting other people. I find that selfish and sad. I don’t feel I am being selfish, it is the cheater that is. He has a wife that can do all the things I can do, plus give him children. But like I mentioned earlier, if I were to say no, another guy would jump at the chance to be with him. He was the one that disclosed he was married, I don’t ask personal questions like that. He has been coming over for at least four years, he now has a child, and I let him contact me, I don’t text him or do anything to jeopardize his marriage. Again, I don’t think I am being selfish, he’s the one that has to deal with that when he looks at his wife after being at my place. I put that out of my mind, it is his decision to play, I don’t force the issue. I am not putting a gun to his head, you know? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PozBearWI Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 2 hours ago, BootmanLA said: Here's the thing: I can see staying with a spouse for a long time without having sex for any number of reasons (having kids together to raise, general contentment despite lack of sexual compatibility/interest, financial interdependence, whatever). My own partner and I (together 20 years) are at that point, and a lot of gay relationships I know end up here as well. But I can't imagine being in this situation and lying/hiding the fact that I have sexual activity outside the relationship. He doesn't know details and don't want to know (not because it would hurt him to know, he just doesn't really care; it would be like detailing to him each time I clip my toenails). And I don't want to know about his, either, though if he told me, I wouldn't be bothered by it. But we at least made it clear that this outside the relationship activity was okay, and what sorts of ground rules we might have. I can't imagine deceiving him because to me, that negates the entire reason for staying in the relationship in the first place. If we have to hide things from each other like that, what's the point in staying together? We seem to be living very similar lives my brother... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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