Is stealthing morally okay?

[subbytch]

No, it's not okay. It's not okay to remove another person's choice from a situation. 

People do make a choice to bug chase, have sex without a condom, even to give up consent for a set period of time. Deciding for another person that it's okay to remove the condom they negotiated, told, or even expected the other person to use, isn't fair in any sense. 

[analluv27]

Stealthing is morally wrong, where if one is big chasing that's morally ok, we won't even bother going in to the legalities. I'm poz undetectable if whom chooses to fuck me asks I tell them then the ball is in their court. They choose no that's ok, they say ok with condom also ok, but then again I'm the bottom.

The question is if a person is undetectable are they morally obligated to declare their status since medical science says we're as safe as houses from an transmissible view point

[Guest zyx11]

18 hours ago, drscorpio said:

The problem with your analogy is that even though they would chew you out for not taking precautions, the police still would arrest the guy for stealing your car if they caught him. The fact that you should have been more careful does not make the theft no longer a crime. 

Personal responsibility goes both ways. Yes, the bottom in the sling should practice a more effective prevention strategy, but the top has a responsibility to answer the question truthfully (even though the use of the word "clean" is rude, everyone knows what is meant by it) and respect the bottom's wishes. 

What you are doing is blaming the victim, and that is never okay. Expecting people not to steal or lie may be naive. Still, the negligence of the car owner or the bottom does not relieve the thief or the stealther of their personal responsibility. 

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

[Sem]

22 hours ago, PhoenixGeoff said:

Why not?  Just because we're sex pigs doesn't mean we're amoral bastards.  Never heard of the classic "hooker with a heart of gold?"

I am very up front with potential sexual partners about my strong preference to bareback.  I won't say I'd never use a condom because it has happened, but there better be a damn good reason.  Especially nowadays in this age of PrEP and undetectable men.

Communication is key.  My profiles have my HIV status all over them.  They are also very up front about barebacking.  Weeds out a lot of the "safe only" guys.  I highly recommend it.

Love how balanced and nuanced you are in your response. Mind if I borrow your line "Just because we're sex pigs doesn't mean we're amoral bastards"? Such a breath of fresh air lol

[Eptxbttm]

I think using an altered condom or removing one when decided to use can be morally wrong. As for lying about status that's more of a gray area since someone is only as negative as their last test results. Barebacking you know the risks and in doing so accept them no matter the best intentions. 

[hungry_hole]

On 2017-04-28 at 3:00 PM, zyx11 said:

So what if that's why guys oppose anon stealthing for that reason? These people want to minimize their risk in having anonymous sex - they are actively taking steps to reduce that risk by using protection, attempting to serosort or both of these things - and then someone else decides to ignore their wishes and force risky behavior on them. 

You are confirming what I wrote earlier:

On 2017-04-28 at 2:40 PM, hungry_hole said:

I'm convinced that some guys who oppose anon stealthing do so out of the frustration that "safe anon sex" is virtually impossible. They would like to go to a bathhouse, get on a sling and have only HIV-negative guys fuck them and breed their hole. And if a horny poz guys shows up, they want the poz guy to say "I'm sorry, but I'm poz and I don't want to infect you". So naive!

Being able to safely have anon bareback sex ain't gonna happen because of many reasons. Demonizing stealthing and denouncing it as a horrible human trait is not going to stop HIV-negative guys from pozing.

I'm not poz but I think it's unfair to place the responsibility on poz guys when there are so many guys who don't want to test for HIV so that they can keep saying that they are HIV-negative.

On 2017-04-29 at 0:18 AM, drscorpio said:

What you are doing is blaming the victim, and that is never okay.

I know we live in an era where everyone wants to be a victim, but I'm sorry, a guy on a public sling who offers his ass to others but as long as they are "clean" is not a victim. Even if a HVL poz guy breds the bottom's hole it does not mean that the bottom will get infected. The only thing that is certain is that when that poz top pulls out the bottom will be in heaven when he touches his sloppy hole. Is that a victim?

On 2017-04-28 at 4:35 PM, pozpig said:

When it comes to anon scenes, respect anything your top/bottom wants.

 

We will more often hear about guys who condemn stealthing because I doubt poz guys who are occasionally into anon-stealthing would have the guts to comment on their experiences. Some poz guy who stops at the bathhouse after the bars are closed, he's horny and a bit tipsy, and wants to breed some hole. A hot bottom catches his attention, he walks into his room and the bottom hands him a condom. The top says "I only bareback" and the bottom asks for his status and the top lies and says he's HIV negative. He dumps his load and leaves.

A very hot scene and in my opinion a totally acceptable behavior because first, the bottom may not even infect with HIV. Second, if he lets this poz guy breed his hole, there is a big chance that the bottom is already poz. It shows already how irresponsible the bottom is, if he wants to stay HIV negative. This particular case, in one phrase "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" which could mean go on PrEP. But do something instead of assuming that all your slutty bottom fantasies will be realized because you will only take cum from HIV-negative guys.

On 2017-04-28 at 1:57 PM, zyx11 said:

When fulfilling your fetishes involves another person, consent comes into play.

The issue of  lack of consent keeps coming up. But the problem I see is that as soon as one enters a bathhouse one is implicitly giving consent but a consent that is not well defined in anyone's mind. Outside in the street we all agree and have rules, no one will approach me and grab my cock. In a bathhouse we give consent be be touched and some extend that consent in order to fulfill their fetishes and needs. I'm not going to spend money and walk into a place that resembles the outside world.

Anon-stealthing is totally avoidable by the HIV-negative guy. All it takes is for the HIV-negative guy to stay away from barebacking with strangers. And because anon-steathing is avoidable and preventable anon-stealthing situations are not as horrible as some here have said.

Anon-stealthing is also very important for those HIV-negative bottoms who are toying with the idea of chasing and taking risks turns them on. We read many of these stories here. Anon sex is such a powerful experience for so many men, and all the action in bathhouses and darkrooms is such a big turn-on, that I dislike the idea of censoring something preventable like anon-stealthing, and thus denying some who want to on occasion live the experience of stealthing.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by hungry_hole

[drscorpio]

I don't disagree with you that a bottom who gets in a sling is playing a dangerous game and expecting others to look out for your safety is foolish. I just want all of you who are banging the "personal responsibility" drum to accept that it goes both ways. 

[drscorpio]

1 hour ago, hungry_hole said:

I know we live in an era where everyone wants to be a victim, but I'm sorry, a guy on a public sling who offers his ass to others but as long as they are "clean" is not a victim. Even if a HVL poz guy breds the bottom's hole it does not mean that the bottom will get infected. The only thing that is certain is that when that poz top pulls out the bottom will be in heaven when he touches his sloppy hole. Is that a victim?

A bottom who let's someone breed them because that top lied about their status after the bottom made it clear he was not willing to take poz loads has been victimized. The fact that he is willing to take other loads does not obligate him to take yours. 

Change that situation to a bottom taking all loads without asking questions, and I will agree with you that the top has done nothing wrong. Don't ask, don't tell is a two way street. 

[hungry_hole]

12 hours ago, drscorpio said:

 I just want all of you who are banging the "personal responsibility" drum to accept that it goes both ways. 

Yes, you are right. Personal responsibility goes both ways because everyone has to be responsible for themselves and not blame someone else if something happens.

 

[hungry_hole]

12 hours ago, drscorpio said:

A bottom who let's someone breed them because that top lied about their status after the bottom made it clear he was not willing to take poz loads has been victimized.

This is the first time I hear a bottom getting off a sling with a load in his hole described as a victim, especially in this site. I'm very surprised.

And if you consider HIV in this equation, infection may not even occur. Where the fuck is the victim?

Edited May 1, 2017 by hungry_hole

[drscorpio]

10 hours ago, hungry_hole said:

This is the first time I hear a bottom getting off a sling with a load in his hole described as a victim, especially in this site. I'm very surprised.

And if you consider HIV in this equation, infection may not even occur. Where the fuck is the victim?

When you ask someone a question and they lie and you make a decision based on their lie that you would not have made if they told the truth, I would say you have been victimized by a dishonest person no matter what the context or situation. 

[Guest btchbyl]

it isnt ok 2 stealth or be stealthed if u dont want it or the other dude doesnt want it. it isnt ok 2 play with someone elses health because u take their choices away from them. there was a point in my life where i tried 2 be responsible with my health and attempted 2 use rubbers. the first time i was stealthed was on all 4s at a rest area with my lower half in another dudes stall (the divider was high up off the floor so it was easy 2 see a dudes ass sitting on the toilet without much effort looking understall). we had 2 stop a few times because someone came in the mensroom. the last time i backed my bare ass in2 the other dudes stall i just looked str8 ahead and didnt check 2 see if he still had the rubber on his dick. at some point after one of the frantic rushes 2 get back in2 my stall and my buns on the toilet seat he took the rubber off and didnt put another one on. i was careless enough not 2 check his dick 2 see if he still had the rubber on and let him back up my hole. it did start 2 feel good and i started 2 think maybe he was buttfucking me bareback but i didnt stop him. when he jizzed up my ass i felt it but didnt pull off his dick i just kept my ass still while he unloaded in it. id been fucked bareback and had my guts spermed so much in the past by anon dudes so i wasnt mad that he stealthed my careless ass in fact i was glad i was used and disrespected that time. it was fucking hot. just because i feel that way tho doesnt make it ok to do it 2 someone else.

[Guest zyx11]

On 4/30/2017 at 5:54 PM, hungry_hole said:

You are confirming what I wrote earlier:

Being able to safely have anon bareback sex ain't gonna happen because of many reasons. Demonizing stealthing and denouncing it as a horrible human trait is not going to stop HIV-negative guys from pozing.

If you see stealthing as behavior as a form of sexual assault (as I do), then demonizing stealthing is definitely worth doing, independent of whether or not it fully stops HIV transmission. I don't want fellow barebackers to start to see this behavior as innocuous or harmless. 

On 4/30/2017 at 5:54 PM, hungry_hole said:

I'm not poz but I think it's unfair to place the responsibility on poz guys when there are so many guys who don't want to test for HIV so that they can keep saying that they are HIV-negative.

I know we live in an era where everyone wants to be a victim, but I'm sorry, a guy on a public sling who offers his ass to others but as long as they are "clean" is not a victim. Even if a HVL poz guy breds the bottom's hole it does not mean that the bottom will get infected. The only thing that is certain is that when that poz top pulls out the bottom will be in heaven when he touches his sloppy hole. Is that a victim?

I think bottoms should be cognizant of the risks they are taking in scenarios like this, but despite your attempt to generalize this as some kind of irrational "activist gone wild" stance, a top in this scenario (and the one described by Dr. Scorpio) is deceiving a bottom and exposing them to potential harm - the fact that HIV transmission doesn't occur in 100% of cases doesn't excuse this behavior. 

On 4/30/2017 at 5:54 PM, hungry_hole said:

We will more often hear about guys who condemn stealthing because I doubt poz guys who are occasionally into anon-stealthing would have the guts to comment on their experiences. Some poz guy who stops at the bathhouse after the bars are closed, he's horny and a bit tipsy, and wants to breed some hole. A hot bottom catches his attention, he walks into his room and the bottom hands him a condom. The top says "I only bareback" and the bottom asks for his status and the top lies and says he's HIV negative. He dumps his load and leaves.

A very hot scene and in my opinion a totally acceptable behavior because first, the bottom may not even infect with HIV. Second, if he lets this poz guy breed his hole, there is a big chance that the bottom is already poz. It shows already how irresponsible the bottom is, if he wants to stay HIV negative. This particular case, in one phrase "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" which could mean go on PrEP. But do something instead of assuming that all your slutty bottom fantasies will be realized because you will only take cum from HIV-negative guys.

1) For what it's worth, I'm on PReP and encourage other gay men & promiscuous peers to get on it, but not everyone can afford an often expensive medication regimen. 

2) Assuming that a bottom is already poz is an absurd way to attempt to justify deceiving someone who is attempting to serosort and practice some kind of harm reduction in admittedly high-risk sexual behavior. 

On 4/30/2017 at 5:54 PM, hungry_hole said:

The issue of  lack of consent keeps coming up. But the problem I see is that as soon as one enters a bathhouse one is implicitly giving consent but a consent that is not well defined in anyone's mind. Outside in the street we all agree and have rules, no one will approach me and grab my cock. In a bathhouse we give consent be be touched and some extend that consent in order to fulfill their fetishes and needs. I'm not going to spend money and walk into a place that resembles the outside world.

A bathhouse is not a place outside space, time, and law. Not only is that assumption of implicit consent not universal, but consent can be revoked at any time.

On 4/30/2017 at 5:54 PM, hungry_hole said:

Anon-stealthing is totally avoidable by the HIV-negative guy. All it takes is for the HIV-negative guy to stay away from barebacking with strangers. And because anon-steathing is avoidable and preventable anon-stealthing situations are not as horrible as some here have said.

I guess you are just talking about these status deception circumstances and not condom removal ones like I've discussed? 

On 4/30/2017 at 5:54 PM, hungry_hole said:

Anon-stealthing is also very important for those HIV-negative bottoms who are toying with the idea of chasing and taking risks turns them on. We read many of these stories here. Anon sex is such a powerful experience for so many men, and all the action in bathhouses and darkrooms is such a big turn-on, that I dislike the idea of censoring something preventable like anon-stealthing, and thus denying some who want to on occasion live the experience of stealthing.

 

Look, people can choose to explore those fantasies if they want, but deceiving a partner in that way is non-consensual sexual behavior. People wishing to explore those fantasies could negotiate role-play with partners. Instead, you are saying that all bottoms should bear these risks because some percentage of them could get off on it?

And also, some/lots of these stories are fiction, written by people who get off on the idea of these experiences but not the reality. I'm not sure that stories about people bug chasing on here can be generalized to suggest a large population of actual, real-life bug chasers - especially one large enough to suggest that tons of bottoms secretly want to be stealthed and that that latent desire justifies that behavior...

[RotzBBengel]

Sorry guys, but I don't believe in victimization. Us gay guys have been victimized by others way too long to keep perpetuating this state ourselves.

 

Shouldn't we take responsibility for our own actions instead, since those are the only ones we can actively control?

If I decide to get into that sling and let others use me as their cumdump, I have to be aware that this decision is fraught with certain risks. More than thirty years after the outbreak of AIDS, knowing those risks is not some kind of secret lore anymore. So I have to be honest to myself and face the question why I am lying in that sling in the first place. I know this risky behavior is highly unreasonable and delegating accountability is not going to make it appear any more sane.

 

Men have been lying in order to get their rocks off for as long as mankind exists, and for most of that time there was no such thing as protection. All men love to dump their loads into a tight, receptive hole and some (mostly gay) men also love to be on the receiving end. AIDS hasn't changed this innate need for complete, unbridled connectedness and, trust me, it never will.

I know that some men will do whatever it takes to plant their seed (no matter if POZ or NEG) securely into another guy's guts and ignoring this knowledge won't get me anywhere.

 

Let's finally be honest to ourselves: there is no safe way of being a cumdump for random strangers' cocks!

IMO, people who believe that shifting responsibility to somebody else will free them from all liabilities are terribly wrong. Because there are two decisions to be taken into account: that stranger's decision to tell a lie and my decision to buy it. And the fact that he's responsible for his decision doesn't mean that I am no longer responsible for mine. When I know the possible side-effects of my actions and feel like I couldn't live with them, then what the fuck am I doing in that sling anyway?!? The answer to that is simple: I am there for a reason. And that reason is my innate need for feeling fat bare mancocks pounding my fuckchute skin-on-skin and drenching my insides in their reproductive fluids. I'm lying in that sling because I want...I need cock. A lot of cock. And cum. As much of it as all those strangers can possibly muster. And if the only way of reaching this state of cum-drenched nirvana is buying their lies, then I'll happily do just that. And that willingness is my fault alone, not theirs. It's really as simple as that.
 

So instead of blaming others for things we should have stopped them from doing in the first place, let's just embrace our carnal needs - with all the risks that come with them. Because lying in that sling with my eyes rolled back into my head and my fuckhole twitching uncontrollably while a total stranger is pounding my cum-slick, worn-out boycunt with deep, relentless strokes of his gnarled, uncut daddydick, the wet smacking of flesh hitting flesh filling my ears, I honestly couldn't care less about his status. After all, that's what good sex should be all about: switching off your brain and forgetting about the world, totally surrendering to the mind-blowing tingle of your fuckhole's supersensitive nerve endings.

And yes, of course there are risks - some of them quite severe - but getting used as a cumdump by a room-full of hirsute, bearded, well-hung strangers until I reach the happy, careless state of cum-fueled oblivion will always outweigh any risk that might occur in the process of getting there.

 

 

[PHXbottomguy]

well said!  I couldn't agree with you more.