Is stealthing morally okay?

[tallslenderguy]

20 hours ago, drscorpio said:

When you ask someone a question and they lie and you make a decision based on their lie that you would not have made if they told the truth, I would say you have been victimized by a dishonest person no matter what the context or situation. 

I agree. 

 

On 5/1/2017 at 5:38 AM, hungry_hole said:

This is the first time I hear a bottom getting off a sling with a load in his hole described as a victim, especially in this site. I'm very surprised.

And if you consider HIV in this equation, infection may not even occur. Where the fuck is the victim?

I get this too. It seems there are degrees of victimhood? I would put the guy on the sling as "barely a victim," but a "victim" none the less. We really do not know what's going on in the mind of the sling guy. He may be naive enough to think he achieves protection by serosorting, not taking into account all those guys claiming to be neg who rarely, if ever, test. Or even those guys who have converted since their last test. Then there's the poz but undetectable guys, arguably the 'safest' ones to fuck with because they know their status and are not likely to infect you with a load of undetectable seed.

Stealthing, as I understand it, is something different though. Stealthing is a top who knows he is poz and likely contagious. This persons intent of stealthing is pretty much to put a poz load in a bottom without their knowing it, thus the term "stealthing"?  I this care I think the bottom is a victim, though a kinda 'stupid' one and one who obviously doesn't take much responsibility on himself. But in fairness, there is the power of hormones on both sides lol. Hormones can make us all 'stupid.' 

I think the willful intent of someone purposefully trying to poz another person against their knowledge and will, using deceit, is "morally wrong." 

[RotzBBengel]

Please don't get me wrong, I do believe that when asked about your status, you should always answer truthfully, no matter whether you're POZ or NEG. And in case you don't know for sure or just don't care, be open about it and tell it like it is.

We know there are bugchasers out there. But there are probably less of them than one might think when reading all those stories about bugchasing we love so much about breeding.zone. What we tend to forget is that they are just that - stories. To many gay guys frequenting this website, bugchasing is a mere fantasy, not a lifestyle. And those lewd stories nothing but an outlet, a safe alternative to actually turning their dirty dreams into reality. Most gay guys, even among us barebackers, undoubtedly don't want to get infected with HIV or any other STD.

But that's exactly why all those tales about having been victimized by stealth pozzers don't ring true for me.

If you're really serious about not getting the bug, then why don't you just go on PrEP, adhere closely to  your drug regimen and fuck happily ever after? Sure, this safe road to bareback paradise might be blocked for some. Like the "straight", happily married father of four who's only that happily married because every now and then he can blow off some steam with his bare daddydick ballsdeep inside the teenaged ass of a boy not older than his own youngest son and  who can't take the risk of his wife intercepting  a revealing letter from their health insurance. But then again, an alledgedly straight guy like him, who got knocked up while bent over a cum-crusted padded sawhorse in the back of a dingy darkroom, getting barebacked  by a total stranger he didn't even care to ask for his name, or maybe while marinating his mancock in multiple anonymous loads, churning the butter inside the cum-dripping pussy of a slutty kid young enough to be his own, is probably not in the position to credibly accuse someone else of being untruthful.

But what about all the others then, "ordinary" gay guys that claim they don't want to catch anything, but still rather build on the assertions of men they've never met before and will probably never meet again than going on PrEP and being on the safe side? It could all be so simple, you might think, but seemingly it is not. But how come?

Maybe because the appeal of going bareback, especially with a stranger, not only depends on bodily sensations, the mind-blowing feeling of skin-on-skin anal sex but even more so on the unique thrill that comes with that same risk everybody claims to avoid as best as they can.

We need that risk of catching something, the possibility of being lied at, of being stealthed, of being pozzed to get off, because it raises the intensity of sex to new, formerly unknown levels.

Why else has the intensity of the bareback sex you have with your monogamous partner of fifteen years waned shortly after you decided to dump those rubbers, while the anonymous bare tryst you had in that dimly-lit back alley behind the bar, the way that hairy, leather-clad brute fucked you mercilessly against the rough brickwall (while your unsuspecting hubby was sitting at the counter, sipping his beer, waiting for you to return from the restroom) still give you goosebumps every time you think of it? And why has breeding your partner's ass suddenly become exciting again afterwards? I think we all know the answer, don't we?!?

So why do we rather rely on what total strangers tell us than going on PrEP? Because going on PrEP would make sex boring again, almost as boring as sex with condoms.

We don't want to get stealthed in reality. But we need the (if only faint) possibility of getting stealthed, because for some reason it turns us on tremendously...

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by RotzBBengel

[Guest Upstateguy518]

I don't approve. There are plenty of bottoms who want it raw so let's respect those that don't. And if you knowingly do it and you have an STD, You are a scum bag ?

[subbytch]

4 hours ago, RotzBBengel said:

Shouldn't we take responsibility for our own actions instead, since those are the only ones we can actively control?

If I decide to get into that sling and let others use me as their cumdump, I have to be aware that this decision is fraught with certain risks.

 

 

Sure, if you climb into a sling in a bathhouse and take all loads, there's no reason to expect that you won't possibly be exposed to HIV. But that's not -really- what we're talking about here.

Stealthing is about the top starting a session with a condom and removing it mid course, or starting a session with a condom that has otherwise been rendered useless, all without the bottom's knowledge or consent. That's -is- wrong. One party thought they had an agreement with the other party on how they were going to interact. The other party unilaterally changed the terms of the interaction without telling anyone. Not nice.

Let's take the term victim out of it. Let's also take out of the question of how often this scenario happens -- I personally think it's rare -- or if it's just a common fantasy. It's a dick move, period. 

There are plenty of people on forums like this and out in the world who proactively state their desire to be pozzed. Whether they are sincere or fantasizing, if a top has a burning desire to knock someone up with HIV, these people are an excellent to share with. If a person is firing live virus, find other people that want the live virus . That's the responsible thing to do.

[ChargedLoadLover]

Stealthing is morally reprehensible, completely unethical and fucking hot as hell.

[Guest Dickmagnet]

I love being stealth fucked or bare fucked i want the load swimming deep inside me. I don't really care what others here think of me. I love bareback sex & for me it's not a fantasy & that's why i'm here. I'm not here for a fantasy, I'm here for the real thing.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Dickmagnet
adding content

[hungry_hole]

13 hours ago, RotzBBengel said:

We need that risk of catching something, the possibility of being lied at, of being stealthed, of being pozzed to get off, because it raises the intensity of sex to new, formerly unknown levels.

YES! That's part of sexual adventures that we can have in a bathhouse. And declaring stealthing as illegal removes an important part of the sexual thrill of some men.

Instead of becoming an anti-stealth activist it's best to follow a good advice I hear in this site for HIV-neg guys who wanna stay neg: "Guys lie and assume everyone is poz" (particularly true in anon scenes).

I sometimes have a hard time following some of the arguments brought forth here.  A while ago I mentioned an STD prevention site SafestSex.org  which I find is based on the best prevention technique, testing and isolation.

All I heard then was that it's impossible for a site like safestsex.org to work because guys lie about their HIV status, which sounds realistic to me if the system does not prevent you from lying. But now in this discussion about stealthing most of the comments try to present every horny guy at a bathhouse as morally pure individual, unlike those immoral stealthers.

 

 

[drscorpio]

I think you hit on a great analogy early on - the one about leaving keys in a car. 

The guy climbing in a sling and asking guys if they are negative and the guy who leaves his key in his car are both being idiots. They are trusting other people's honesty to protect them. Their strategies for protecting themselves make no sense. They have no reasonable expectation of being protected. 

Still I have seen cars with keys in them and not stolen the car. I have fucked guys who never checked whether I put on a condom, but I didn't fuck them bare (this was a long time ago when I was more vers and using rubbers - also I am neg, so I cannot poz stealth). I am not compelled to take advantage of the other person's carelessness. I can make a moral decision not to do so. The stealther and the car thief both make a conscious decision to take advantage of another person's vulnerability. That's what makes it morally wrong. 

The bottom and the careless driver are  tempting people to take advantage of them. There are poz guys and shady people who might commit a crime of opportunity that they would not have otherwise done. That does not make it any less wrong for them to do so. 

A bottom who gets in a sling and takes all loads is more like a driver who leaves his car running and walks away with a sign taped to the window that says "You want it, take it." No one who takes advantage in either of these situations has done anything wrong. 

 

All of that said, stealthing is a super hot fantasy. I have read many stealthing stories. I have beaten off to many stealthing stories. I have even written several. I am happy we have a place to talk about what turns us on. 

[drscorpio]

2 hours ago, hungry_hole said:

I sometimes have a hard time following some of the arguments brought forth here.  A while ago I mentioned an STD prevention site SafestSex.org  which I find is based on the best prevention technique, testing and isolation.

All I heard then was that it's impossible for a site like safestsex.org to work because guys lie about their HIV status, which sounds realistic to me if the system does not prevent you from lying. But now in this discussion about stealthing most of the comments try to present every horny guy at a bathhouse as morally pure individual, unlike those immoral stealthers.

I don't think guys (wherever they are) are automatically morally pure. The guy who depends on people not lying to him to stay neg whether in the sling or on a website is likely to end up poz because people lie, and people stealth. Actually as we now know, the liars are not the people most likely to poz you; it is the guys who genuinely believe they are neg but who actually got pozzed last month and have a sky-high VL.

I think you are conflating two arguments. One argument is moral/philosophical, and the other is real-world/practical. I can believe stealthing is morally wrong, and still accept it happens all the time.

I don't understand how you can accept that guys will lie in a bathhouse and still want to believe everyone on the website only tells the perfect, honest truth every time. 

[tallslenderguy]

7 hours ago, Dickmagnet said:

I love being stealth fucked or bare fucked i want the load swimming deep inside me. I don't really care what others here think of me. I love bareback sex & for me it's not a fantasy & that's why i'm here. I'm not here for a fantasy, I'm here for the real thing.

Prolly no worries of anyone thinking less of you for what you love.  You're neg and cannot stealth.

[Guest Dickmagnet]

2 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

Prolly no worries of anyone thinking less of you for what you love.  You're neg and cannot stealth.

But i can stealth a condom being used on me & i have done that often too just to get the load inside me.

[PissPigBrooklyn]

I agree with those who feel that stealthing is morally wrong particularly when the other person has asked about hiv status. It is also criminal. I know the fantasy of stealthing and of being stealthed is hot as hell but so  is the fantasy of being raped. The reality is something else again. Whether it is morally wrong to stealth by omission and/or is frequently mentioned in the discussions about this issue in the bathhouse or backroom sling situation is a bit more hazy. A case can certainly be made for not disclosing (if not asked) in this situation. I noted a couple who seemed to accept that both parties need to accept responsibilty for their own actions but then place the blame once again on the "negative partner" Accepting responsibility means "yes, the person who (by not asking) took the poz load must deal with the fact that he is sick by his actions but the person who stealthed must accept the fact that this person is ill and will remain ill and possibly die because you did not reveal your status or, worse, lied about it. You need to at least be able to say. "Yes I have harmed men but I'm okay with that." Look at yourself in the mirror as you say that statement. (I am not talking about chasers and gifters here. It is about stealthers and careless bottoms. I myself chased and I have been "stealthed" a few times by men who thought I was neg since we had not discussed status.)

[AzbelleLi]

Well. I'd just think i can throw in my two cents. As I got recently stealthed. I didn't know that he was going to, but all in all I actually enjoyed it when I realized later he stealthed me.

 

The question if something is morally correct, or not is entirely dependent on whatever moral compass one is following, I may not be an expert on what defines such moral compass, but a golden rule as a template for a moral code? That in my opinion would constitute a good foundation for a moral compass. 

 

In reality what is morally correct, or wrong for that reason is pretty hard to define, sure you might weight it up and evaluate, but as I mentioned, to what standard? It is the same as when someone weighs a jar. To what standard are we weighing towards? Setting a standard, is a pretty good start point. Do as you would want to be treated. (Pretty hard to say that, considering we are on a bareback, but lets play along)

 

Getting stealthed, against your knowledge I'd say is morally wrong. Out of this. Sure I got stealthed and I liked it, but that would not make it morally okay ofcourse. Getting HIV Stealthed is something very morally wrong in my opinion. To put another well-being into danger is something in general that should always be morally wrong, in these scenarios (Sure HIV is treatable, and living with is is possible, but its wrong to give them HIV without them knowing) 

 

Just my two cents I guess. 

 

 

[tallslenderguy]

2 hours ago, Dickmagnet said:

But i can stealth a condom being used on me & i have done that often too just to get the load inside me.

yeah, i am not surprised. To me, even though there is purposeful deception, you are practicing it to get pozzed, not to poz someone. But as I think of it, it is a little grayer, because obviously that person is wearing a condom with the intent of self protection, something removed by compromising the condom. Honestly, I've done this too as a bottom a few times when a top goes soft because of fucking with a condom on (for me its always been through a GH), i suck him while he still has the condom on and bite on the tip of the condom. Not saying I think it is "right", but I have done it. I know I am undetectable, but I am still violating his trust. 

[bbinbpark]

9 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

yeah, i am not surprised. To me, even though there is purposeful deception, you are practicing it to get pozzed, not to poz someone. But as I think of it, it is a little grayer, because obviously that person is wearing a condom with the intent of self protection, something removed by compromising the condom. Honestly, I've done this too as a bottom a few times when a top goes soft because of fucking with a condom on (for me its always been through a GH), i suck him while he still has the condom on and bite on the tip of the condom. Not saying I think it is "right", but I have done it. I know I am undetectable, but I am still violating his trust. 

I don't assume anyone who wants a load necessarily wants to get pozzed.  After I took my first load I wanted more, I didn't want STD's though, but there is an addiction to having cum in your ass or even mouth.  

On another note I find the whole discussion fascinating that some think stealthing is passing a disease on in secret, and some just to get/give a load with someone insisting on condoms.  The story covered in various news outlets, around when this thread started, seemed to be more centered on the moral aspect, and pregnancy risk with STI's being a secondary concern.  I think the vast majority of men that want the condom off, is not due to them wanting to spread an STI, but because it feels better.  Straight and gay alike.