Male Sexual Hierarchy

[blackrobe]

6 hours ago, highcountrybb said:

There’s nothing “manly” or masculine about men having sex with other men, regardless of top/bottom.

Since @rock-cock-jock covered the logical dismantling of your arguments, it leaves me free to react more succinctly to the above.

"Then U R doing it wrong."

[NLbear]

I am a bottom and I like it if the top takes the initiative (or even control of the sex) but I would hardly call myself submissive. Not every bottom is submissive. I still see me and my sex partner as equals. I'm not just a hole, I am a person too. Would that make me a Bottom Boy in that chart? Don't know. 

[Pozguyinchi]

21 hours ago, ErosWired said:

I just happened to stumble across this just after I posted the topic:

This is perfect. I identify as a sub bottom. I feel that as a bottom it’s my job to find out where the man I am with feels comfortable. For example yesterday I was in the video store getting bred and I turned around to tell the man in me that it was ok to cum inside me. His response was…”I don’t pull out. You will get bred” I knew at that point that I didn’t need to navigate where we fit together. He was using me for his pleasure and did not care if I had any needs. He was alpha and I was sub. The way it should be.

[KylerIsTrash]

21 hours ago, ErosWired said:

I’m not suggesting that chart is a good breakdown of a hierarchy, but it does suggest that the perception is out there, including the notion that “fuck-hole faggots” are the lowest of the low.

I’m as faggot as they cum. I’ve seen the chart before and I don’t agree with it in a strict sense either. I definitely consider myself a fuck-hole faggot and live by a strict no-load-refused creed.

I’m not submissive. I know how I want used.  If a top wants to finger my hole or use a condom or take me out of the dark room I will not submit. I will move on to the next cock. I’m chill to a point but I will take off the blindfold and get serious if he’s insistent.  I’m not competitive in or out of the bedroom. If some dude doesn’t want to fuck me I earnestly wish him good luck and I move on with my night. 

Not all tops are worthy of domination. I’ll beg for every load from any dick that gets in me and I don’t say no to anyone but I do mentally rate fucks. I know my fuckhole is above average and I know where I rank against a top. If a top is acting dom but giving a lousy fuck, then dude seems like he’s acting.  The only reason a top should dominate is because their fuck is top tier. The top can make the bottom do anything to keep the fuck from ending.  If a bomb af top wants to dom me I’ll go along for the ride.

[hntnhole]

I don't think the concept of "place" is quite so cast in concrete for us gay men - particularly of our persuasions within that group.  While most of us are inclined to either Dominance or submission, the dynamic is more fluid than just that.  There are many ways to Dominate, just as there are many ways to serve.  Sure, we have natural tendencies to one or the other, but those are not static as some might think.  

On 5/5/2022 at 12:12 AM, ErosWired said:

enjoyed fucking faggots to put them in their place because they craved it.

A man like ^ may indeed enjoy assuming the role of dominator, even punisher.  Assuming some other guy "craves" it, is not casting that bottom into a concrete role, it is merely doing so in the moment.  As part of the mating process, that one time.  Personally, I would wonder if a Top that behaves this way doesn't have other issues he needs to resolve.  However, while my innate nature is to "lead", as opposed to "follow", I am very capable of allowing myself to assume - within the context of a "connection" in more depth than merely the physical act of mating - the sexually submissive role.  It all depends on the circumstances of that particular mental/emotional/depth of sexual exchange.  I don't particularly care for it physically, but I can perform when the occasion asks me to.  It's more fluid than cast in concrete.  "

 

On 5/5/2022 at 12:12 AM, ErosWired said:

So it would seem that the more a man performs a female role, the lower he stands in relation to other men.

I think that the "standing" in relation to other men encompasses a lot more than merely sexual position.  Attitude, demeanor, self-confidence, all of those and more are merely components of who we are, and in what measure.  In the event that some guy in the backrooms says "I'm gonna fuck you" to me, I instinctually think to myself "is that quite, quite so ...".  It happens so rarely I can't even remember when it last happened.  That said, I occasionally see a fb, and - despite the fact that I can't possibly imagine any man thinking my  ass is attractive - I know that he and I have established that required "connection", and am pleased to reinforce it by taking his Cock up my ribey ass (plus, it's not all that big).  So, for me, it's more fluid, and depends on the circumstances.  "the lower he stands in relation to other men" is not a concept that I recognize.  

I've mentioned in previous exchanges that I place cumdumps very highly on the ladder of esteem.  A man who embraces that calling has dedicated himself to a life of service first, which inclination cannot be denigrated.  Some men may denigrate the way in which he serves, but no one can look down on those who dedicate their lives to service (of any kind, for that matter).  It takes tremendous fortitude, which many men lack - particularly self-centered T/D's struggling with other character issues.  It's fluid, nothing in cast in concrete.

On 5/5/2022 at 12:12 AM, ErosWired said:

whether the man expresses pride, or dignity, or has standards, or possesses skills

Any ranking of Tops/Doms/Alphas depends wholly upon this statement.  For that matter, if society in general is about ranking men, it applies as well.  Some of these men, particularly within our little corner of the Universe, posses these attributes, and often because they've learned how to live a decent life.  I would define "decency" as being honest, treating others with the inherent dignity each human being deserves, and hold himself to certain self-defined standards.  Within our little corner, it's also most encouraging when these men take the trouble to learn how to fuck, i.e. the skills needed to make every sexual mating pleasurable to not merely himself, but the sub as well.  Raw Mating is always, always, always to be considered an exchange, not a one-way street.  It is a joyful, enriching exchange, and can be repeated many times in one night, with many men.  It can also be completed singly, as with one's lover.  A man with a stunted personality however, is far less likely to have developed the skills necessary for your listed attributes.

I would consider the "level of promiscuity" differently.  That level would correlate to how the T/D/A developed in his pride, dignity, standards and skills.  The more a man has accomplished these attributes, the more he understands that they must be shared with as many of his peers as he can.  While all of his sexual partners may not even comprehend the reasons they got a first-class Breeding, they most likely will know they have.  But, it's fluid, dependent on the bottom's ability to comprehend, and the Top's ability to deliver. No man has ever experienced only the magical, ethereal connection every time he Breeds.  

On 5/5/2022 at 12:12 AM, ErosWired said:

I’m pretty sure there’s more to it than that and I can’t see it because I can’t perceive the workings of the Top mind.

I hope this helps in some small way. Thanks for another excellent topic.

[highcountrybb]

No one dismantled my argument. It is truth. You are all rong. Everything I say is right. An old shaman told me all I know. 

[PendragonSpirit]

I'm going to be one of those people who doesn't subscribe to the idea of a "hierarchy" (and don't get me started on the whole "alpha" thing.) 

My reasoning is thus: that "hierarchy" would be entirely subjective to the individual. If anything, we have a very symbiotic relationship with one another. Sure, you could say that "alpha top men" are at the peak of some pyramid or whatever, but.. honestly, without bottoms, who are the tops topping? Similarly, without tops, who are the bottoms getting plowed by?

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with a little roleplay in the bedroom (or theater.. alleyway... park... car.. etc.) But in the end, for a satisfying sexual life, we all sort of rely on having the other groups available.

[ErosWired]

There’s been a lot of really good commentary on this already, and I’m going to try to come back and respond to some specific items from various posters as time allows. For the moment, though, I’m taken by the several posters who state that there’s either no hierarchy at all, or that it’s just roleplay or fetish.

Our societies are replete with social hierarchies. Entire civilzations are predicated upon social hierarchies. Hierarchies are very closely bound to power and influence, but power and influence operate at every level. The biggest fish in a pond full of small fish is still the Big Fish there. An individual may not choose to see himself in terms of a given hierarchy, but his self-view is irrelevant - he is a member of a community of others, and it is their reaction to him that constitutes the hierarchy. They give him a place among them; he doesn’t get to choose how they decide to accept him.

In India one of the Dalit caste doesn’t just say, “Oh, I don’t subscribe to the whole ‘untouchables’ thing” - that person lives as one of that caste because others in the society perceive that he belongs there and treat him accordingly.

It doesn’t matter whether I subscribe to the idea that I might be something other than fully masculine because I have been inseminated - there are men who perceive me that way and treat me accordingly. If enough men do, it becomes an commonly accepted position with respect to the way other men are viewed and treated. We do not exist in individual vacuums.

 I also don’t quite concur that the notion is simply a matter of roleplay or fetish. Note that such comments seem to come mainly from men who also claim that a hierarchy does not apply to them, or that they simply have never understood it. Just because you don’t understand Dominance and submission, for instance, doesn’t mean that those who practice it are merely acting or fetishizing. It may be that you are observing a real hierarchy in action.

My submission to other men is real - it isn’t pretend. I allow other men to use my body in aggressive ways for sexual acts for their personal gratification in ways that enable them to exercise a degree of dominance and control over me. The fact that it’s consensual only amplifies the point that I recognize the difference in energy between us. In a way, it’s almost as if a hierarchy can boil down to a simple question of physics and energy levels.

A Top may extrapolate my submission in extreme terms as he fucks me and calls me a faggot cunt, and to be sure, any hierarchy is going to be subjective (relatively speaking), but I’m not sure it can be dismissed out of hand.

 I really don’t, however, think that chart above is anything close to representing what’s going on. It’s a single vertical axis. I’m working on a model that would measure men’s position on a three-axis system. I’ll post it when I get it worked out.

[viking8x6]

On 5/7/2022 at 3:38 AM, ErosWired said:

I’m working on a model that would measure men’s position on a three-axis system.

Speaking of axes...

[tallslenderguy]

Wow, yet another reason why i love this community of guys. Thanks ErosWired for starting this thread, and thanks to all who have thoughtfully contributed. 

The notion/disposition of human hierarchy is one of the things that is/has evolved out me during my life. Not that it doesn't exist, i just don't consider it a model to aspire to or live by.  

Any more, i am bemused by the variations of Putins in the world, i see them as the opposite of how they present, i.e., weak, pathetic and overcompensating. 

i do think nature is rife with examples of opposites though. Taking it down to the smallest level, there are positively charged ions, negatively charged ions and neutral ions.  The charge on the electron and proton are exactly the same size (i.e. equal), but opposite.  Of course, humans are more complex than individual ions and, as far as we know, ions don't have stuff like emotions or cognition... further studies are needed.  i believe the strongest and most stable bonds occur between equal opposites and the notion off inferior/superior is inherently unstable (50% of 'traditional' marriages end in divorce).  

 

my point is, i think the notion of say Top or bottom superiority/inferiority (respectively) is more of an embellishment or construct than a reflection of intrinsic attraction.  i think force and capitulation are a poor imitation or substitution for natural attraction, connection and bonding between opposites. 

Not suggesting that sexuality (male or otherwise) is a simple proposition, but i have come to believe that things like "role play" are just that, "play."  To me, stuff like that gets in the way of discovering and experiencing what it actually there, that it's a form of denial or disbelief. 

[hntnhole]

2 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

 i think force and capitulation are a poor imitation or substitution for natural attraction, connection and bonding between opposites.

I'm assuming you are defining "force and capitulation" differently than physically forcing into submission an objecting bottom, right?  Oh - in the clink again, so this doubles as the upvote ... there are all these medals; not sure what they're for, if I get tossed into the "responses" clink all the time .....

[theplayerking]

Like many people on this site, I have hooked up with thousands of men in almost every conceivable scenario. I’ve found the only guys that care even a little bit about sexual hierarchy are ultra-submissive bottoms, because the are sexually aroused by being dominated. Most men are situational and adapt to the moment or a given partner. 

[hntnhole]

On 5/5/2022 at 12:54 PM, rock-cock-jock said:

if he kept doing it I was going to punch him the throat. Unfortunately, that kinda ruined the momentum and he mumbled sorry and left.

Kudo's bud ... you stood up to an empty shell, and he skulked away, having his bluff called.  Well Done.

 

On 5/5/2022 at 2:54 PM, rock-cock-jock said:

the usage of the word has been warped by extreme conservatives/religious groups/homophobic communities

Well, that part's probably on-point, but I'm a liiiittle tiiiiiny bit biased against said groups anyway.

That said, is there a chance he constructed his screen name with a bit of tongue-in-cheekiness?  To most of us, the "High Country" means one thing, but perhaps he's in the "clouds", where rational discourse is almost impossible?  According to my understanding, rational thought isn't a major issue up there .... 

[tallslenderguy]

20 hours ago, hntnhole said:

I'm assuming you are defining "force and capitulation" differently than physically forcing into submission an objecting bottom, right?  

i think "force and capitulation" can extend to physical, but i think it starts with an attitude of bullying and presumption.  To me the bullying part is an effort to compensate. You used the word "bluff" in another response, with i think fits perfectly. i feel similarly about role play (which is just a personal feeling on my part, not making universal judgements).

The feelings i am having when i bottom or feel submissive, are real, they do not need to be forced, bullied, coerced... and to me, if the response is capitulation, it's not 'real' or the same as submission. When a particular kink of Top evokes feelings of submission from me, there is no force involved or necessary, it's a natural response to Who and how He is, opposites attracting. 

A rapist will sometimes tell their victim: "you know you want it."  To me, that is  extreme bullying, force, capitiulation.  But there is a situation where chemistry is there and both parties experience it an a Top may say: "you know you want it" and it is true. The first is presumption, the second is real knowledge of the other person and reading and experiencing the attraction and bonding of opposites.  To me, that is an almost magical experience. 

[MuscledHorse]

On 5/5/2022 at 12:41 AM, ErosWired said:

I just happened to stumble across this just after I posted the topic:

Except guys like me violate that entire construct since I am at once a very masculine and aggressive guy with a really nice fat cock on me, but at the same time I am proud sex object, perverted pet (I'm a pup) and bottom boy for cocks, toys, hands (anything that'll fit really) and group use.