Trans men In bathhouses

[NWUSHorny]

11 hours ago, topblkmale said:

What if the transman is straight and wants to bring his woman along for some fun? Why not be inclusive of straight men (and women)?

That's what Bi-night is for. Actually here in Portland it seems to be okay for most of the fetish themed nights, which doesn't really make a difference since guys don't fuck at any of them.

[NWUSHorny]

2 hours ago, viking8x6 said:

I agree with you about much of this. Hence my comment that if one isn't comfortable with the rules of a particular space on a particular occasion, one shouldn't go there.  Or in your hypothetical case, one should put up that notice or choose another activity. But I would argue that it's not a question of whether the space is safe to be who and what one is, but whether it's safe to engage in a particular activity (yes, I'm splitting hairs here).

In any case, the management of such establishments clearly should make their policies very clear, for the benefit of all their would-be patrons.

To be fair to @ErosWired I had a minor variation on this happen to me at a bathhouse this fall. It was pup night, and I got asked back to the pup and handlers room, and while the handler was obviously presenting as a woman, I was operating under the assumption that she was an anatomical male below, it turns out she wasn't. In my case it worked out more or less ok since I'm bi and her pup wanted to flip with me, which we did. I would have been more than ok with it if she had been interested in letting me fuck her as well, but sadly she only wanted to use dildos on us and watch, I let her watch, but I personally have no interest in being penetrated by a toy. 

[JamesL100]

Good points. There are many guys who avoid the no-towel parties, fetish and bear/hairy/chub nights.
As long as the venue publicises themes then guys can flock or avoid as they wish.
In some UK cities, str8 places have/had monthly gay/men's parties.
I can cope with occasional bi sessions at men's saunas.
It's usually down to the relevant venue licence being in place.

[ErosWired]

6 hours ago, viking8x6 said:

Or in your hypothetical case, one should put up that notice or choose another activity. But I would argue that it's not a question of whether the space is safe to be who and what one is, but whether it's safe to engage in a particular activity

But this brings us right back to the reason why we have gender-segregated naked spaces. Consider the general atmosphere of a men’s bathhouse catering to a largely gay clientele - if I enter such a space, I can expect to be looked at and evaluated in a sexual context, and likely touched, and possibly touched at points of my anatomy where I would not be touched out in public, all without being asked. In the context of this place, I expect this; indeed it is the reason I go there, and if a man approaches or touches me and I don’t wish it, I know how to act as another man.

But in a mixed-gender setting, if a man touches a woman without her consent, particularly in an intimate place, even if the venue is a place like a bathhouse, and even if she has come there for a sexual purpose herself, the question of sexual assault arises simply by virtue of the difference in gender.

Consider how behavior in the average bathhouse would change if one day women started appearing in the facility where they had not before. Men would either become self-conscious and stop doing things they would openly do around other men, or continue, assuming that the women were there on the same terms…

…until one of them touches a woman in a sexual way without permission. Suddenly we’re reminded exactly why we have gender-segregated naked spaces: Mixed naked spaces are a minefield.

But aside from the sexual, there are behaviors and exchanges that men engage in exclusively with other men - it has been so throughout human history. The presence of women has a chilling effect on those behaviors. The same is true of women and their exclusive behavior toward other women. Exclusive spaces are a part of social and ritual culture worldwide, and it would be absurd to suggest that we dispense with them.

I wasn’t suggesting putting up notices in bathhouses as an actual solution. The extension of that idea is that everyone ends up walking around wearing a sign with a list of warnings, and everyone becomes so nervous about transgressing someone’s boundaries that no one initiates contact anymore. Yes, we could put up notices, but we shouldn’t have to in a space dedicated to our needs. Not every place has to accommodate all people. Note: The Universe doesn’t work like that; the natural world doesn’t create environments to suit all species uniformly. A species either adapts to the way things are in a given place, or goes elsewhere. I see a transperson as doing the former, adapting the self to the environment, not demanding that the environment adapt to the individual (demanding the use of novel pronouns is an exception to this), but persons of the opposite gender expecting the venue and all who use it change so as to accommodate them is a demand that the environment adapt to the individual.

[viking8x6]

@ErosWired - As I said, I generally agree with you here and I think your expectations are reasonable. I certainly think it's appropriate to expect that people who are outside the generally accepted status quo in a bathhouse - or any situation in which personal interaction takes place without the usual layers of clothing, manners, structure [work, school, business] and so forth that normally moderate that interaction - should be the ones to tread carefully with respect to violating people's expectations.

Apropos of this, when the whole #MeToo thing blew up three or four years ago, at least one of the bathhouses in my current orbit instituted a policy that consent is required and put up signs explicitly stating that "unwanted touch" is off-limits. It's not clear exactly how this is supposed to work in the case of ass-up in a room...

[ErosWired]

37 minutes ago, viking8x6 said:

when the whole #MeToo thing blew up three or four years ago,

You make #MeToo sound like an accident at an oil refinery.  🙂

[BootmanLA]

With respect to notices: I think the point is that bathhouses (and indeed, most, if not all, commercial institutions) should post any "rules of the joint" as well as notices of "special rules for special nights". Those could be as simple as "restrooms for customers only" (which you'll often see in tourist area restaurants, bars, and stores) or as complex as "Trans men are welcome in this space" in a bathhouse. And those notices can be temporary, as in "Tonight's bi-night" or whatever, signaling a temporary change in an otherwise general policy.

To me, the latter is like going to a restaurant that's normally fairly quiet, and finding that tonight, there's live country (or other genre) music all evening when you don't like that kind of music. You decide whether it's worth putting up with the music you dislike, in order to eat the food you want; or you go somewhere else to find different food that's acceptable; or you go eat at home; or you skip dinner. But it's the restaurant's choice whether to periodically change up the vibe of the space, and your choice whether to participate in their establishment's offerings or not.

In other words, @ErosWired, I'm not necessarily opposed to men-only spaces, particularly sexually-oriented ones that cater to men having sex with other men. I'm not opposed to such places limiting (if they choose) to cis men; I'm not opposed to them welcoming trans men. What seems overkill to me is the attitude some men here seem to have that a bathhouse is irrevocably tainted if there's a man born with a vagina somewhere on the premises - that the entire experience is ruined for him just knowing that such a person is in the facility.

[topblkmale]

6 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

With respect to notices: I think the point is that bathhouses (and indeed, most, if not all, commercial institutions) should post any "rules of the joint" as well as notices of "special rules for special nights". Those could be as simple as "restrooms for customers only" (which you'll often see in tourist area restaurants, bars, and stores) or as complex as "Trans men are welcome in this space" in a bathhouse. And those notices can be temporary, as in "Tonight's bi-night" or whatever, signaling a temporary change in an otherwise general policy.

To me, the latter is like going to a restaurant that's normally fairly quiet, and finding that tonight, there's live country (or other genre) music all evening when you don't like that kind of music. You decide whether it's worth putting up with the music you dislike, in order to eat the food you want; or you go somewhere else to find different food that's acceptable; or you go eat at home; or you skip dinner. But it's the restaurant's choice whether to periodically change up the vibe of the space, and your choice whether to participate in their establishment's offerings or not.

In other words, @ErosWired, I'm not necessarily opposed to men-only spaces, particularly sexually-oriented ones that cater to men having sex with other men. I'm not opposed to such places limiting (if they choose) to cis men; I'm not opposed to them welcoming trans men. What seems overkill to me is the attitude some men here seem to have that a bathhouse is irrevocably tainted if there's a man born with a vagina somewhere on the premises - that the entire experience is ruined for him just knowing that such a person is in the facility.

 

Many gay men are adverse to vaginal sex just as most straight men are adverse to anal sex (with males~with penises).

[BootmanLA]

1 minute ago, topblkmale said:

 

Many gay men are adverse to vaginal sex just as most straight men are adverse to anal sex (with males~with penises).

Being adverse to vaginal sex is not the same thing as "being averse to a vagina being anywhere present in the building I'm in".

I do not know of a single bathhouse in the nation that is so small that you can't have sex (with a man who's got a dick and balls) in a room where you can't see that awful nasty vagina that you seem to get the vapors over. The likelihood that there are going to be vagina-having men in every, or even most, of the spaces in a bathhouse on any given night are infinitesimally small. Just don't look at them, turn them down politely as you would anyone else with whom you don't want to have sex, and move the fuck on.

[ErosWired]

18 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

With respect to notices: I think the point is that bathhouses (and indeed, most, if not all, commercial institutions) should post any "rules of the joint" as well as notices of "special rules for special nights". Those could be as simple as "restrooms for customers only" (which you'll often see in tourist area restaurants, bars, and stores) or as complex as "Trans men are welcome in this space" in a bathhouse. And those notices can be temporary, as in "Tonight's bi-night" or whatever, signaling a temporary change in an otherwise general policy.

I was more referring to notices that an individual would feel the need to post on the door to his room at a bathhouse reading ‘Men Only Please’ or some such if women were also present, in order to avoid having to deal with undesired contact. Such a thing could only, inevitably, lead to a toxic atmosphere, in my view, with signs appearing reading, “No Tits, No Twats, No Fems, No Fats, No 30+” etc., just like in the apps.

[BootmanLA]

2 hours ago, ErosWired said:

I was more referring to notices that an individual would feel the need to post on the door to his room at a bathhouse reading ‘Men Only Please’ or some such if women were also present, in order to avoid having to deal with undesired contact. Such a thing could only, inevitably, lead to a toxic atmosphere, in my view, with signs appearing reading, “No Tits, No Twats, No Fems, No Fats, No 30+” etc., just like in the apps.

Agreed - I think personal notices (as opposed to official ones from the establishment) are potentially a huge problem.

[ScorpionFF]

Before I read through the current 9 pages of comments and give reactions which I am sure will be done in more than one sitting I'll give my gut reaction to the original question - As I have a strong sexual attraction and a bit more to FTM's who I personally find super sexy then I would say more the merrier at a sauna and sex club.

My greedy lust aside I don't see a problem having transsexuals at the aforementioned venues. Variety is the spice of life and all that, eh. And there is someone for everyone. 

[ScorpionFF]

On 11/29/2023 at 7:39 PM, viking8x6 said:

I'd be delighted to encounter one.

Me too! 👅🐷

[ScorpionFF]

On 11/30/2023 at 12:51 AM, hntnhole said:

I wouldn't want to fuck one, but I surely would talk to them, do what I can to embrace their presence.

Exactly, we're all human at the end of the day. 

On 11/30/2023 at 12:51 AM, hntnhole said:

we need to express inclusiveness in our own behavior, and to all our brothers (and sisters) at the very least.  

Indeed. 

[Guest]

On 11/28/2023 at 11:40 PM, Chubbytransguy said:

How do you feel about transgender men in places like bathhouses and male-only swinger’s clubs?

You mean women in gay spas. Gay men have actually been brainwashed to accept pussy at the spa!!!! Thank the farleft media for destroying every facet of our society even gay spas