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You’re missing two different points of mine. Purifying the party absolutely happens at least as much with Republicans. You mentioned Sinema and Manchin. I pointed to Cheney and Kinzinger. But also Romney. However, most of the purifying happens in primary elections.

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But in expressing your ideas, you rely on one example that might prove your point. So yes, I give counter examples. But to fully engage with a concept, we need discussion on each one. Which I’m happy to do.

Yes, and no. Yes, I’m justifying it. But they’re actually not doing it to be obstinate at all. Getting affordable healthcare to everyone is a core principle of the Democratic Party. That’s what they’re doing here. And as one of my sources noted, the majority of the 24 million people who would be most impacted are Republicans in red states. It’s a negotiating tactic that usually would lead to compromise. However, with Trump, lol bets are off. He’ll let it all burn down. People are getting notice that their healthcare premiums will double, triple, and sometimes more. These people, too, would be collateral damage.

@Pozzible You're kinda making my point. In you're first note, you're justifying the hypocrisy, re: shutdown: as Dems are doing it/fighting for "..." fill in the blank. You're justifying collateral damage for Dem political gain. What Dems "are fighting for" isn't actually the issue, they're just doing it to be obstinate using people's incomes and necessary services to get what they want. In your second comment, you're not debating the point(s) in and of themselves. You're rationalizing based on Republican actions... the, "they're doing it too" argument. Remember when growing up a parent would ask, "if they jump off a bridge are you going to?" Also, you wrote, I gave very specific examples for each one. but, yes, I was trying to answer specific questions you and another person asked. You said, Progressive did not just talk. As stated, they used it to purify the party and push out moderates. See link as an example. [think before following links] https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/philboas/2023/04/19/ruben-gallego-attack-kyrsten-sinema-filibuster-may-regret-it/70130218007/

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People are ALWAYS talking about things like filibuster reform. That’s different from actively trying to make the changes. Or how Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger were exiled from Republican Party? Which is absolutely what Trump is doing. Deporting college students who have study visas due to their voiced opinions, eliminating funding to universities that won’t comply with his personal mandates on what courses they can offer to students, instructing the Attorney General to indict people who have spoken/acted against him, getting Colbert’s show cancelled and getting Kimmel taken of his show, extorting law firms to agree not to take clients who oppose Trump. Etc, etc, etc. You may have heard this from some individuals on the Left, but not from anyone in office and generally not from anyone other that a few twitter (x) comments. In virtually every case Democrats have said that political violence is never acceptable. That doesn’t mean people on the left haven’t noted Kirk’s charged rhetoric. Sorry if you think this is “tit-for-tat”. I, too, am willing to engage in political debate. But it’s hard to do that with a long lists of concepts. Much better to do one idea at a time.

Republicans eliminated 60-vote threshold (the “nuclear option”) to confirm Supreme Court nominees. after Dems filibustered Neil Gorsuch’s confirmation. In 2013, Dems had changed the rule for presidential nominees other than Supreme Court after Republicans filibustered multiple nominations. So whether it’s a 50 vote threshold or a 60 vote threshold, the concept of filibustering is the same (when one person holds the floor speaking as long as s/he can to delay a vote). Eventually the person will have to sit down which will end that filibuster. It annoys the majority party, but almost always the speaker will sit down in 10 hours or less. [think before following links] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/01/fact-check-gop-ended-senate-filibuster-supreme-court-nominees/3573369001/ So Dems are not filibustering to keep government shut down Senate has voted 10 times and Dems have voted against it each time. The House is a different situation. Speaker Mike Johnson has told Republicans to stay home and hasn’t held any votes. (Presumably, so he won’t have to swear in a newly elected Democratic Representative because she would be the 218th vote for a petition requiring the Epstein files to be released and Trump says no.) You’re absolutely right that there is a lot of collateral damage while government is shut down. Legally, the government employees who don’t get paid will be paid their backpay when the government reopens (however Trump says he may not comply with that law.) Nevertheless, there a lot of people who live paycheck to paycheck and will be suffering great harm while they wait for government to reopen. Almost every shutdown has been due to Republican recalcitrance. [think before following links] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/government-shutdown-history-congress/ This shutdown is the first significant one that has been caused by Democrats. “As the minority party, Democrats don't have much power. However, Republicans need at least seven Democratic votes to pass any spending bill out of the Senate, where 60 votes are needed to advance most legislation in the 100-seat chamber. This time, Democrats are using that leverage to push for renewing expanded health-care subsidies for people who buy insurance through the Affordable Care Act (ACA). Their proposal would make permanent enhanced tax breaks that are otherwise due to expire at the end of the year and make them available to more middle-income households. If those tax breaks are allowed to expire, health insurance costs will increase dramatically for many of the 24 million Americans who get their coverage through the ACA, according to the non-partisan Kaiser Family Foundation. The impact would be most acute in Republican-controlled states that have refused to expand the Medicaid health plan for the poor” [think before following links] https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-government-shutdown-1.7647414 So, yes. There are a lot of federal workers who will be hurt by the shutdown But Dems are fighting for the 24 million people whose health insurance would be greatly increased preventing many from having access to healthcare. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene is siding with the Dems in this instance because she’s hearing from her constituents how horribly impacted they will be by the increase in cost of their insurance. Republicans (mainly Trump) refuse to negotiate. So, no, the Dems aren’t filibustering which would be a one day problem Shutdown will continue until one side hollers “uncle.”

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@hntnhole you asked I'll answer on two fronts, 1 personal, where I am collateral damage to their policies, 2 public, where many others are: Personal: I've summarized above and wrote elsewhere how DEI policies have hurt my ability to get a job. I'll restate (was just trying to avoid duplication I was omitted via online app for a job I was very qualified for, so went thru an internal former colleague. I made it to final round of three. I found out thru colleague job was reduced for highest ranked woman and all final candidates -- incl. me -- were omitted same process as above, different company. In this case, job was eliminated and merged with another to hire a person of color. In both these two, my former colleagues were informed as part of exec team. Otherwise, like many others, I would not have known. a third example: in an panel interview (not with HR), the final Q of 12 was, "We believe in DEI policies, why should we hire you?" Public: As stated above, Dems are effectively filibustering to keep the government shutdown ( @Pozzible see below ). As they've rightly stated in past, shutting down the government hurts many people for income to services. All those people not getting paid, not getting services, etc. are the collateral damage. Dems lost the election. Remember it was progressives, just a few years ago, who tried to do away with this 60-vote threshold as it wasn't democracy -- a simple majority. Now they're using for their own ends. Quickly, see above for @Pozzible, it is filibustering as the filibuster is what requires 60 votes to surpass -- and that's where we are. I don't think we need to play semantics. Here's a quick write-up on wikipedia: [think before following links] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_in_the_United_States_Senate To recap my above point. Democracies have fallen not just by oligarchs and despots... but extremist partisans by political parties. These groups, once becoming extreme, have done all sorts of things from exiling those that don't profess allegiance (to them or their ideas) to outright killing. They also try change rules when they don't work for them. Usually, this is a progression: Justifying hypocrisy. See shutdown. Trying to change the rules when they don't work for them. See filibuster reform, or even Pete Buttigieg's talk of expanding the Supreme Court simply for political purposes. Purifying the party. As I wrote above, for one example, how moderates like Manchin and Sinema were exiled by left wing re: filibuster. It was among his stated reasons Ruben Gallego primaried Sinema in the 2024 cycle. Obedience. @hntnhole even you ref'd this in part of you comments above on page 1. I'm paraphrasing here, so not using quotes as I'm also NOT personally calling you out re: intent. But it's along the line, If you don't say something you're part of the problem. Forced adherence is the start of getting people to stop thinking for themselves. It's the start of blind obedience. To marry that with forced speech is the opposite of free speech. Free speech is the right to say what you want which INCLUDES being silent. Forced speech has been a mantra of progressives for a few years now. Physical violence. I hope this is clear. The left, unequivocally outraged in most cases of mass shootings, etc. has already downplayed or, at minimum, qualified violence from the left. For Kirk and Trump, statements like, "...it's not OK, but..." Violence is not OK, period, exclamation point. There is no qualification. Many commentators, on both political sides, make horrible statements everyday. No one should wait for a person to be killed for it to pointed out about them, "...it's not OK, but..." I hope this more clearly states my point. And, hopefully, we can all avoid any tit-for-tat or child-like "but they do it" counter-points. Agreed, "they" do. But that stuff is for the playground. I'm always happy to debate on points/substance.

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