Are " undetectable" poz guys ZERO risk to other barebackers?

[Belfast-Bottom]

Hi guys, I've heard various reports that poz guys on medication with an "undetectable" status are incapable of infecting bottoms? Does anyone know how true this is? Anyone know of reputable studies?

[ptcumdump]

a study was done a couple of years ago in switzerland that concluded that hiv positive individuals whose infection is controlled by anti-retrovirals and have an undetectable viral load and no other std's pose no transmission risk to negative partners. the key to that of course is that people don't know for certainty at any given time whether their viral load is undetectable. poz people who do have other std's, particularly syphilis, tend to have a spike in their viral loads even with med therapy. that's why public health officials, especially in the us, are reluctant to say that it is "safe" to have unprotected sex with a positive partner if he/she has undetectable levels of the virus. also, as you probably know, undetectable doesn't mean NO virus--it means there are fewer copies than can be detected by traditional clinical testing methods (usually under either 40 or 45 copies).

[btm2bbred]

As ptcumdump notes above "......undetectable doesn't mean NO virus...."

I doubt that any scientific study would say that there is zero risk of transmission of hiv+ from an undetectable poz guy. They would couch their language in terms of lower risk than someone who has a detectable virus, even if a very low one.

[RedPhillip]

Short answer is that yes, poz guys on effective medication regimens with consistently undetectable viral loads seem to be highly unlikely to transmit HIV to their partners. It is not a guarantee, but the risks are very much reduced. Here is one report that is useful:

http://www.aidsmap.com/page/1429357/

Another report from the recent CROI Conference:

http://aidsmap.com/Is-treatment-really-reducing-infections/page/1685888/#item1685891

There are two problems with researching this issue:

1) There has been relatively little research on the specific impact of successful antiviral treatment on HIV transmission. It is difficult to tease out the various factors and their relative importance that have contributed to a decline of new infections. Given that infection rates did not decline as much in the years prior to effective antiviral therapy (when prevention relied almost entirely on safer sex practices) as they have in the HAART era, it is logical to conclude that successful treatment has contributed to the greater decline in infection. This inference is not iron-clad, though there are good biological reasons for asserting the claim.

2) There is a degree of active hostility to any research that would provide evidence supporting any bareback sex, and especially between poz and neg partners. This makes research funding harder to secure, and makes dispassionate investigation and discussion difficult.

[bobbie]

I was with a guy who took a razor blade and nicked my ass lips a couple of times before he fucked me. He was undetectable because of the meds he was on. Do you think he infected me? I have not been tested.

[RedPhillip]

Even with the prep this guy provided it is pretty unlikely you were infected. You don't mention how long ago this happened, but if it is more than three months ago and you haven't experienced any illness - like a really bad flu or cold - adds are strong that you did not pick up HIV from this guy. Not everyone experiences a conversion syndrome after infection, but it is fairly common. Testing is the only way to be sure one way or another.

[NiceHard1]

Hey Bobbie- Wondering if you have since tested positive? - either from this experience, or from subsequent experiences getting fucked, possibly by guys who were not undetectable?

[bobbie]

Well, I haven't been tested since the guy nicked my ass lips and fucked me. I guess I don't really want to know. But man I would love to get fucked by you...damn man, you are HOT looking and if you are poz...I will travel to get your babies!!!

[poznative]

Bringing some sanity into this discussion, if you test HIV+, you are, at the very least, a carrier and probabaly toxic. From your last posting, why are you concerned. It reads like you are a chaser and you want to become HIV+. I'm not passing judgement. But, I mean, having a POZ guy use a razor blade to cut your ass, fuck you, and then wonder if you are HIV+...? DUH! The POZ man was looking to infect you and you were going along with it. Detectable or not, if a POZ man fucked you and there was any tearing (whether by razor blade or his big cock), my thinking is that there is a 95% probability you're POZ. After all, that is what you want...isn't it. Otherwise, why allow him to cut you anus.

[HardhatBB]

seems like the question asked can be answered by a simple test...sheesh

Nothing is 100 percent..remember sexed in school?..rubbers are not 100 percent either, so not hard to figure "undedectable" may not be

[GermanFucker]

a study was done a couple of years ago in switzerland that concluded that hiv positive individuals whose infection is controlled by anti-retrovirals and have an undetectable viral load and no other std's pose no transmission risk to negative partners.

AFAIK the study was done with more or less monogamous heterosexual couples. Also the conclusions / predictions relied on mathematic modelling. So while its conclusions are certainly relevant, it doesn't apply 100% to the promiscuous gay community. As you pointed out correctly, other STDs can increase viral load and risk of transmission.

The best summary of the study I read is:

THE RISK IS NOT ZERO BUT COMPARABLE TO OTHER GENERAL LIFE RISKS (car accident, cancer, broken condom while practising safer sex etc.). If both partners are reasonably careful with regard to other STDs (getting tested regularly, effective treatment, no sex during STDs) and the poz partner adheres to his meds schedule, the risk is so very, very low, that the neg partner shouldn't worry much about it.

I was with a guy who took a razor blade and nicked my ass lips a couple of times before he fucked me. He was undetectable because of the meds he was on. Do you think he infected me? I have not been tested.

Simple: Get tested. Everything else is just idle talk. I have to disagree with poznative: If he is truly undetectable there's a really good chance (certainly more than 5%) that nothing happened . On the other hand, if a guy wanted to cut my anus with a razorblade I wouldn't just take his word for it that he's undetectable. So it's a question that noone can answer for you. If you want to know, please get tested.

[HungLatinDom]

Agreed, he might not be undetect, or he might not even know what undetect is. Yes, it has happened to me. Some people are extremely ignorant.

[thomas12]

I actually started another thread (oops) asking this in terms of tops fucking infected yet undetected bottoms. But the thing that concerns me now is that I'm seeing a lot of are people posting their status as undetectable. It's great that there's a very low chance if undetectable. But remember that just because their BBRT profile says that, doesn't mean it's true. And when it comes to them saying it, I was once told by an older gay gentleman, "T.A.L. - They All Lie."

I just hope they have a cure soon. They've dragged it out long enough.

And wait, the story of the razorblade was true? I honestly thought he was just making fun of the stupidity some have when trying to rationalize why they may not get HIV. Wow. Well, that's still better than shit fetish in my opinion. (no disrespect meant).

[bbrt2012]

people can do what they want, but even if you live with someone, you should functionally assume they have everything and it's contagious and if you aren't comfortable with that....don't engage in transmissable activity. words are just words. they don't mean the person's knowledge is the same as would be reported on a blood test, and it's YOUR body you have to live in.

the reason i say even if you live with someone...is that i get really tired of people telling me "but i see my partner every day and i trust him...but we haven't had sex in 3 months"....really? because i bet you could find him on scruff in 10 minutes.

[TigerMilner]

The research sent out after AIDS 2012 said that BOTTOMS on ARV with undetectable viral loads reduce their risk of infecting their partners by 96%. Didn't day tops. I've also read that undetectable in blood is not necessarily undetectable in semen. Condoms are only 97% effective, so the net result is almost the same. Razor blade cutting your asshole? I'd kick a guys ass if he tried to cut mine. Are you fucking crazy! No judgements intended. But really, that would hurt and the resulting infections might not include HIV but might be pretty damn unpleasant.