tallslenderguy

i love You for this. i don't know why, butt i do.

Wanting "pig sex" and "cheating" are two different things. i don't think there's anything wrong with wanting "pig sex." i cannot find a positive connotation for "cheating." i have to question the quality of any relationship where one has to cheat/lie to maintain it. To me, one of the primary differences of an intimate relationship is having a person in your life is is open and honest with you and who you can be open and honest with... that is the relationship, two people who love each other for who they are. If you have to hide who you are, where's the relationship?

Someone else mentioned this: Regarding nudging up against someone or casually brushing his crotch as you pass... that is too aggressive for me. I'm a bottom and that is not natural for me... Guys tend to touch me wherever, when they want to. "Aggressive" isn't natural for most bottoms i think, but desire and need as a bottom are natural. When i say "brush His crotch" it has to look totally innocent. like in a very crowded room letting His crotch touch my ass by accidentally backing my pussy into His cock. It's not a grope, it's an offering. Or accidentally, and with fear/being scared trying to make body contact... it's different than the aggressive Alpha who feels and exercises the right to touch or grab, it's more a way of offering oneself if He wants.

Interesting topic, pretty clear it's not banned words but context that is being managed. like it or not, we live in a society of laws and communities like this can be shut down pretty fast. Look what happened to CL. The truth is, there are plenty of people out there who believe "God hates Fags," who would imprison and punish us in a heartbeat for just being gay, given the power. i appreciate the thought and energy RawTop has put into creating and preserving this community.

Darth Vader?

i will sort of answer your question with a question: how do you substantiate your "trust?" Our feelings and notions of trust are often just that, "feelings" and "notions." Without having actual test evidence in front of us, one doesn't really know if their partner is neg or undetectable. We are really just taking peoples word for it and trusting our own perceptions (and i gotta wonder just how objective two horny guys feelings are lol). The most trustworthy position to be in if you want to be bred and are trying to stay neg is to get on PrEP. That's actually backed by study evidence, and you can pretty much know for certain whether or not you have taken the med.

No, i do not mean to imply your usage of those words is "inaccurate or overblown," i am sorry if i came across that way. From things you have written, it is my impression that your training and conditioning were of the sort i describe further down, "forceful and coercive." Types of Dom;'s and methods i do not consider "right or wrong," but people and ways i would have personally fled from had that been my situation. No, i've stated before and i still believe that the things you relate are real and well articulated. I like and appreciate your "dense" sentences ❤️ Regarding affectionate grooming, i don't think i am communicating what i mean by that, maybe because you just don't relate or perhaps haven't experienced what i refer to, or maybe you just aren't the kind of person that responds to that kind of manipulation (for lack of a better word). "Grooming" is the best i can come up with. Yes, i do respond better to affection and did and do grant that some people respond to and even want negative reinforcement. I felt i tried to say that evenly. Yes, i think one bottom can provide training to another, will that result in universal preparation for all "actual experience?" i don't think so. That question makes me wonder if the type of training you have received prepares you for accommodating the affectionate type of Dom i describe? That's a real question, not a challenge. Just as you can claim real and lasting change from your experiences with particular Dom's/Masters you have been with, i too believe i have been changed, lasting deep change, by my experience with certain affectionate Dom/s.

i love it when someone wakes up a thread that's a few years old and i re-read some of what i have written a few years ago and see how i have or have not changed. i wrote the above response 2.5 years ago and would modify it somewhat now. i still am not "fem" or a "sissy," but it's definitely a hot button in me when a Top or Dom naturally treats me that way. i don't pretend to (completely) understand it, but when a Guy casually or matter of factly treats me as fem or sissy, or does something to demonstrate He sees me that way, like shave me or have me dress in panties, call my parts "pussy," etc., it drives me wild and puts me in heat. And to me, that is very different than me just doing that on my own. No one even knows i am gay unless i tell them, so i am apparently not stereotypical gay, let alone "faggot," i laugh and tell myself, "maybe i'm too much of a faggot to be one on my own, that i need a Man to bring it out in me, and i'm not man enough to do that." But that is only half jest, i think there is something real to that. The thing i still don't relate too or buy into is the meanness that some get into. "Mean" isn't quite the word i am searching for, but more the notion of inferior. i don't consider faggots, sissy's etc., to be inferior. The idea of being Topped by a all Top she-male is a definite fantasy. i don't hate women or the qualities that are typically associated with them, but i see and feel a difference. When i first divorced (from a marriage to a woman), i thought i might be bi, so i dated a few women and a trans person (FtM). The women were a no go, they wanted sex, i didn't. The trans person was also a no-go. Even though i completely accepted their identity, there was something "female" (beyond the physical) that kept me from any kind of turn on sexually, even though that person would have topped me. On the other hand, i have no problem seeing a she-male Top as a "man', or at least possessing something (again beyond the physical) that i want and need.

Idk. You were "trained," so perhaps that's why it's a part of your expectation and perspective to think in terms of a bottom needing some sort of formal training? Personally, i think you're a sweet babe with a natural bottom/sub makeup. You experienced "several dominant Tops including a former Master/Owner who "conditioned" you with their ideas and expectations of who and what a bottom should be. i think you'd be a bottom/sub regardless of their training, not because of it. i think we are all shaped by our experiences, Top or bottom, Dom or sub. i get that there are D/s people who believe and follow a code that the Dom dictates and the sub submits, building from a foundation that the Dom is superior, stronger and the sub inferior, weaker. Those are not the only people who identify as D/s though. There are others who don't believe D/s has anything to do with the one being superiori, stronger and the other inferior, weaker. i submit (of course i do lol) that the skills we acquire as Tops or bottoms have more to do with our openness to learn than from being forced to become. Which is not to say that we cannot be conditioned or groomed, but for me affectionate grooming is a lot more powerful and motivating and exploitive of my nature than forceful conditioning is. To me, forceful conditioning breaks resistance (intentionally) while affectionate grooming nurtures submission (intentionally). i've obeyed and submitted to forceful Doms, but i've been possessed by and adored affectionate nurturing Doms. And again, i get that there are both types. i'm not suggesting that one is right and the other wrong, but that there are different D/s dispositions and approaches. With that idea, i think a bottom/sub can learn from a Top or bottom, Dom or sub and a Top/Dom can learn from a Top or bottom, Dom or sub. i think each brings something unique to the table, that there isn't a one size fits all category, though there are basic similarities? We can understand our opposites, but may not be able to relate to them if that is not the way we are. i think it's important to listen and look at everyone, to see and hear all. i think it's a mistake to say we can only learn from one or the other, because in so doing we leave out half the perspective.

It's hard, probably impossible, to quantify a "norm" for STI's, there's just so many variables. i think part of our "norm" should be to get tested regularly for STI's if we are sexually active. As stated elsewhere, i believe the stigma attached to sex, and even more to gay sex, is what drives the high numbers and increase in STI's, not having sex. Think of how much lower the incidence of the common cold or flu could be if everyone wore masks? Kind of the facial equivalent of a condom and we could coin a term: 'Safe (safer) Breathing,' But that's not going to happen, at least wide spread, because no-one stigmatizes or shames people for breathing. We get vaccines but are shamed about getting PrEP, yet PrEP is one of the most effective preventatives we have!!! Fuck, in the best years the flu vaccine is only about 80% efficacious and lately more commonly that number is around 20%, yet we still do it because 20% of millions of people is still a significant number, even though it's hard to argue on an individual basis. But PrEP? Comparatively, it's a miracle, pretty much 100% efficacious in preventing HIV contraction. If we want to create a new "norm" in frequency of contracting other STI's, i say we take a "fuck you" attitude to the heteronormative , Victorian culture that has shamed people about sex. i'd love to see gays be the leaders in intelligence because we get that sex is a basic human need and that shaming people about it just increases STI's. i guarantee if the gay community got it, and got on board and we all got tested quarterly, the gay community would have the lowest incidence of STI's eventually. Not because we are abstaining from 'breathing' or wearing a 'mask,' but because we are using the wonderful science that's available to treat and reduce the incidence of disease, and thus reduce the spread.

i still get hard, all the time. But it's mental/psychological stimulation that gets me hard. Any talk or thought of me using my penis, and it stays soft and unresponsive, thoughts or talk of me getting bred or Topped in some way, and it gets hard. Though i don't identify as "fem," to me my penis is more like a clit because it seems to respond like one. Just like a woman clit gets engorged when she is sexually excited, my penis gets engorged... and wet too lol. Seriously. If a Top is talking to me about His need or desire to breed or penetrate me, even if i don't get engorged, i start dripping and am get wet. i love a mans ass. To me, it's the most beautiful part of the male anatomy. Even as a total bottom, a guys ass turns me on like crazy, but not the idea of penetrating it, it's just a powerful stimulator for me. if i ever try to consider fucking a guys ass though, it's like my penis rebels and goes soft, like i really couldn't even if i wanted to. It's kind of mysterious to me, but it all seems to be part of my psychological make up, it's not physiological.

It's hard to fathom such ignorance in the age of Google. It's Grindr!! (i.e., it's a sex hook-up ap). It's bizarre the number of people who still don't understand that pretty much no one on a hook up site should be considered 'safe' as regards HIV unless they are on PrEP or poz undectable. Those are really tho only evidence based "safe" guys. It cracks me up when i read someone has tested negative a year ago, or even a month ago, as though that makes them free and clear of HIV. Even if they've had no sex for a year, did they get a follow up test to confirm being neg? There are just so many more variables to having sex and remaining neg if ART isn't figured into the equation. If anyone should "feel bad" it's the guys who don't truly know their status who are depending on everyone else to protect them from HIV instead of educating their self and using the proven protection that exists (PrEP). It's immature, ignorant, and sort of idiotic to think others are responsible for your health when youre having sex with random strangers on hook up sites.

Right? To me, a Top and bottom male are two sides of the same coin. We are both testosterone filled and driven, just from opposite directions. i'm as driven to have my Tops cock and seed (and piss and....) as He is driven to penetrate and deposits Himself. There's differences of course. i love the Top who knows how to manipulate and control (in a good way) a bottoms need for Him. For me the biggest key and advantage to ongoing relationship (whatever form, not talking monogamy necessarily) is Him controlling a bottoms lust for Him or Tops by finding ways to keep His bottom from cumming by using his penis. i'm a bottomless slut when i haven't cum for awhile and a Top is edging me psychologically (and sometimes physically) without letting me cum. i think it is an underused energy for lack of understanding.

i got my definition from the urban dictionary, but that makes sense too.

i think this is a good point, though i don't really see it as an adaptation so much as an enhancement for a bottom? i guess it's a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' question? i've encountered plenty of Guys with small cocks who were all Top and i love to be penetrated and bred by them too. i knew one who was so Top and confident that He had no problem explaining how Manly He was and what a pussy i am and how much i needed Him and His cock.

lol, You taught me a new one: "SPH" (small penis haver for those who don't know). i think "freeing" is an insightful way to put it. The reality of it is, i don't have a small penis. i've had more than a few refere to it as large, though i think it is really more girth than large (~7"), though as a grower and not shower, it can be pretty small when flaccid. For me, it's the Tops perception and treatment of it and me that carry weight. It really has impact when a Top is matter of fact, almost casual about His reference to my penis being insignificant in some way or other, or calls it a clit or nub or some other term that emphasizes a lack of distinction. Clarifying that, my penis, is not really meant for fucking with and implying that it really wouldn't be useful for that and i don't have the psychological equipment for it.

"Small cocked bottoms like to be laughed at?" YES!! but why? That's a question i find myself asking always about how i/we are. It's especially fascinating for me when it comes to areas that are generally seen in a negative light, like humiliation or being "laughed at." One of my theories is because it is actually a form of affirmation and love. There are some of us who are at the extreme end of the sexual spectrum and identify as "total bottoms" and maybe also "sub" and we do not want to be seen or treated as penetrators or breeders. So, when someone comes along and makes fun of our penis, minimizes it, disqualifies it as a penetrative, breeding part of us, it actually affirms who we are and evokes all sorts of positive response. i think the converse is true too. i think guys who are naturally at the extreme end of the sexual spectrum as "Total Tops" and maybe also "Dom" and never want to be penetrated or bred, but always want to be on the other side of that dynamic, are also affirmed by bottoms who love Their assertions of being potent, The Cock, The Penetrator, and minimizing the bottom emphasis and affirms Who They are.

This echos so many of my thoughts and feelings, i think you've wonderfully articulated some great insights!! i agree heartily that it's unrealistic to expect one person to meet all of ones needs/wants. i do think that one of the benefits of a ltr is it can help us identify our needs/wants. i think a mistake we make is the presumption that the person and relationship that helps us identify our needs and wants is responsible for meeting them. To me, the idea/ideal of 'love' is it is something freely given, not coerced, guilted or shames out of someone. If we truly love someone, it seems to me that we would want them to get their needs and wants met. In that vein, i have come to see compatibility as a very important factor in ltr. i advocate for the sort of "speaking out... " and "diagram it out" as something we do in order to figure out whether we are a ltr fit in the first place. E.g., in simple terms, if i am a bottom and i'm interested in a guy and he is a bottom too, we have to decide just how important sex is as a definer of our relationship? For me, it's hard to imagine being in a long term romantic relationship with that person, but i can easily imagine being a long term intimate friend. Romance, for me, involves sex, so part of my "rules and expectations" are that a person be a Top in order to even be considered as a potential long term romantic relationship. For me, that puts the horse before the cart to do that. i came from a religious culture that, in addition to not allowing for my being gay, programed the notions of monogamy and virgnity prior to the commitment to a monogamous marriage. i think that is an undercurrent in a lot of relationships, that many of the ramifications and expectations of religious culture is built into mainstream heteronormative 'values' (which has also been built into gay people who were raised in a heteronormative culture). I.e., those 'values' force people to find out about most of their needs and wants after making a commitment. The ideal of commitment overshadows the realities of need and want and lack of compatibility devolves the relationship into quid pro quo. i don't think that is sustainable. There is no natural balance as with a Top/bottom dynamic where each persons need naturally meets the others. Instead, each is expecting the other to meet their need/want because of the ideal of "love." To me, a successful ltr has both love and compatibility, not just "love."

i applaud you for not just jumping ship. For me, one of the big advantages of being gay has been it has taught me (sort of forced initially) to question the/my status quo. We grow up in the culture we were born into and are programed by it with all sorts of ideas, notions, rules and regulations on how stuff should be, in this case, relationship. Once we get into relationship, however, we soon discover that our ideas of how it's gonna be or 'should' be are different from reality. You obviously recognize and acknowledge that you have something with this person that you deem worthy of preserving. Yay you!! i consider that a sign of maturity, no matter how things eventually work out. Infidelity, and the lying and cheating that usually accompanies it, hurts. So often, the pain of it forces people apart. But it can also present an opportunity to look deeper into ourselves and our relationship, to ask questions about why and how. To me, one of the primary positives of a dedicated ltr is the opportunities it gives us to open up and be vulnerable with another person, and thereby connect and bond with them. best to you.

One could argue that being on PreP can reduce the spread of STI's because people of PreP get checked out more frequently. Whether or not the regular check ups for HIV while on PreP include a complete screen for other STI's is questionable, but it is more likely that a caregiver is going to do a complete screen while you are there. PreP therapy provides the opportunity for more frequent STI screening. Ditto viking's response. The current scientific studies on PreP efficacy utilize guys having bareback sex, they don't ensure each partner the study participant is having sex with is clear of all other STI's besides HIV before having sex. You may be referring to the possible synergy between herpes (HSV) and HIV. There is study evidence demonstrating higher shedding in HSV infected upon initiation of ART. "The study, “Increase in herpes simplex virus shedding at initiation of antiretroviral therapy (ART) and decrease in shedding over time on ART in HIV and HSV-2 infected persons,” was published in the journal AIDS" [think before following links] https://www.contagionlive.com/news/antiretroviral-therapy-initiation-leads-to-short-term-spike-in-viral-shedding-among-patients-with-hiv-and-hsv2-coinfection

i too am grateful for the contributors on this site and thread. Some wonderful discussions. i too wonder about monogamy. i fantasize about a variation of it , i guess. Having a relationship with a Top who i cede control of my sex too, a caged penis to make and keep me horny, and Him controlling who breeds me. Even if that means He want's me to be fucked by anyone and everyone, for me psychologically i associate that with Him fucking and breeding me. He has me lie on the bed and pimps my pussy out to whomever He pleases while He watches, and i am watching and listening to His lust the whole time and taking those cocks and loads as His. i know, not traditional at all, but to me it can be enormously intimate with Him, and i have experienced a reciprocal feeling from a Top having that kind of control given to Him. There are so many amazing possibilities with relationship.

i sort of get the thrill of chasing and gifting, depending on your perspective as Top or bottom. Tops need/love/want to be potent, to breed, plant and impregnate bottoms. bottoms need/love/want to be bred, planted and impregnated by a Top, to have a part of Him in them. i feel those things too. Here's my alternative offering. Bacterial and viral diseases are not a part of us, they are invaders that harm both Tops and bottoms and weaken who they are. There are so many ways a Top can impregnate and put and leave a part of HIMSELF in a bottom. A virus or bacteria is not Him, it's just using the Top or bottom to spread. i see it as more potent for a Top to prevent HIV from watering Him down by being on meds if He is poz or PrEP if He is not poz, so what He imparts to a bottom is completely Himself. i see a bottom as more of an open recpeptacle if he doesn't have his spaces invaded by disease and leaves them open for a Top to invade with Himself. I'd rather have everything a Top has to breed my pussy with, be it His cum, piss or even His scat under some circumstances. i want Him. Diseases eventually reduce a Top or bottoms ability to breed... to me that is always a bad thing.

i know, eh? So many want to invalidate our experiences because they don't conform to the heteronormative standards of how things are or should be. i think a lot of ltr's die because of failed and unrealistic expectations. i love the idea of a ltr, i think even a sort of monogamy can have benefits as long as it is happening in natural paremeters and is a result of mutual desire, not a forced conformity to a rule. For instance, a Top who cages His bottom and a bottom who loves Him for that. There are innumerable variations on realational experiences. Being in a ltr provides an opportunity to get to know a person better, to delve deeper than one might in a quickie hook up... though i've had some pretty profound hook ups. i think a lot depends on how well a person knows their self and how practiced they are at being open and vulnerable. i too love human behaviour and how the mind works. To me, collaring/being collared is hot... physically and psychologically collaring and being collared is even hotter from their respective perspectives/natures and connections.

Well, yeah, but they aren't mutually exclusive. They're pretty awesome when they mix or overlap. i'm a bottom who loves a Top who also is into mind fuck. Every now and then our paths will cross in hook up sex and we are both feeling it deeply. He reads me and knows His power over me, and loves the opportunity to exercise Who He is. Breeding me deep, and then knowingly kissing my neck or whispering something that collars me into my ear, my back arches involunarily sending Him deeper into me while i bite my mattress to keep from declaring my love for Him. hehe, it happens, and it's sweet.

Ditto RawCumboy. As a bottom in heat, i'll often be pretty obvious too. if i have even the smallest idea that you are looking, i'm in heat pretty fast and doing things like letting my ass crack show in front of you, maybe walking past you and rubbing up against your cock accidentally. i'm going to be presenting my ass to you though, bending over etc. if i suspect you need some pussy, i'm going to let you know i want you in some pretty obvious ways. If both are looking, cruising is not hard at all, just your cock is.