hntnhole

I had no idea that was happening. Years ago I held a position as music director for a while in a UMC, and found the opposite: there were plenty of gay members, the pastor was a lesbian, and it seems so refreshing after the church I grew up in. Everyone seemed to get along well with everyone else, and I felt more "at home" there than any Lutheran Church I ever set foot in. Plus, I had a 32' bourdon on that organ, which was fun. You "felt" it as much as you heard it. Organized Religion just doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.

Well, now I know more than I did before. I'd never heard of a "prayer call", but I definitely remember conference calls - when every employee tried to interrupt every other employee, advancing their own interests. Glad those are in the rear-view-mirror now. Thank you, brnbk, for your gracious responses. I share the same wishes for Mr. Johnson, preferably far from a governmental position.

I didn't imply that. It would be not only idiotic, it would be impossible. Most of these kinds of "partnerships", for lack time to explain the complexities here, are inevitably much longer in duration - often a matter of years, and fairly often, for many years. My apologies if you assumed it was for something else. I'll just leave it with this: The act of "taking" a sub, a boy (of whatever age) for one's own is - within the parameters of the Leather Ethic as I learned it years ago - at the very least a semi-permanent act. The use of a safe-word in the thread was merely that for introductory or casual scenes, which was the subject of the thread, I mentioned that old-fashioned idea of "tear down, rebuild up" as an example of what is far from a mere hook-up, for which a negotiation is required. I don't know your experience in this arena, and I'm not asking. I only know what I've learned over the years, and I mentioned that old adage for context. As I did mention, that "tear-down/build up" construct never made any sense to me years ago, and still doesn't today. Any guy on BZ that's considering such a partnership should investigate closely before he enters into that kind of a relationship. Of course, at the initial negotiation. Or, say they initially meet each other by happenstance at some bar, get to chatting, agree to meet again, and eventually and sense something drawing them to each other. In any event, I call that getting acquainted. It would take quite a bit more substantial conversation to get to the point of exploring the possibilities of the Dom "taking" the sub as his own, and the sub realizing that this particular man is something special. That's when the serious discussions would begin, culminating in the initial negotiation. Since I'm at it, the references to household issues like income, etc are ancillary to establishing the basic level of trust required as we're discussing here. If a Bd/Sm relationship develops, grows, comes to fruition, sure - the sub may move in with the Dom, and then the house-hold issues would rise to the surface and that would be great for both men. Those issues however, would not be germane to an initial scene. Thanks for your always-worthwhile response. I very much hope I've been clear. I would go so far as to say that there are "wannabe" Doms that have not one tiny clue what the whole thing is about. This kind of interaction is a very serious, deep and potentially harmful (both physically and certainly emotionally) relationship that must be founded on well-earned Trust between the two (or sometimes more) men. A mere negotiation is for a one-time scene, and sometimes blossoms into a full-on relationship. I can guarantee you that there are some wannabe Bd/Sm Tops that have not one iota's worth of a clue what they're about. Calling them "skewed" in their perceptions is gentle indeed. That's not to belittle the importance of a negotiation for an initial scene; establishing the limits is crucial in this kind of exchange; the negotiation is merely a Bd/Sm version of meeting, shaking hands, and saying something innocuous like I'm this - what are you? The first step in becoming familiar, and perhaps trusting of the other. If there are subs that don't understand it all, and there definitely are, there are just as many Doms that don't either. This is why the Leather Community can be so helpful. I'm referencing established "big-city" Leather communities here. There are also online sites which I don't use anymore, sites like ReCon used to be, where a sub interested in putting a toe in the water can find help. There are Bd/Sm organizations like CHC where a potential sub can find the real deal about another man. Not that there are many anymore, but the *real* Leatherbars used to be at least some place to start investigating too. I'm still in touch regularly with subboys from years ago, one calls every Sunday. It's one of those truly life-changing experiences for the serious ones.

Google Inn Leather for the phone number ... you should do it soon - they might be booked up by now. Good luck.

On top of a '49 Buick slant-back, in a junkyard somewhere in Ohio. A group of gay car-guys were headed East to attend Hershey, Carlisle, Meadow Brooke or one of those shows, and we stopped at a really excellent junkyard (car-guys are always on the lookout for out-of-the-way junkyards), and one guy sort of hung back from the others. I had to get my tools out of the trunk, and lagged behind. So did he, and back behind some trees/bushes/undergrowth, he go on top of that Buick hidden behind trees, bushes, undergrowth, and started a "bump-n-grind' right on the roof. He was Italian, cute, hot ass, I was a lot younger, and that was it. Then, went off to hunt for some MoPar parts ... with a filthy grin on my mug.

Well, that was obliquely put ... 😄 It seems that when a guy realizes he's gay, and he must therefore reject cultural bullshit in order to be a fully-human guy, he may throw out all the cultural beliefs, including those that encourage honesty, respect, etc, which apply to us all, across the board, feeling (not thinking) that if one doesn't apply to him, then none do. If there are some guys that get a charge out of lying/cheating, then so be it. We can only control what we ourselves do. What they don't realize is, they're diminishing themselves first - and the "partner/whatever" secondly. I wouldn't want to marry one. I'm sure I've fucked plenty of them in the fuckjoints, and that's as close as I want to get.

Of course - you're right on. In fact, there's nothing physiologically that would prevent a bottom from taking as many loads as he wants/needs. The bottom doesn't need to cum, or even get hard in order to be valuable to a Top. I'd say bottoms are lucky in that regard. They don't have to depend on physiology to assuage their Lusts. Once they open their Holes, it can be two, ten or twenty loads. Almost no Top can match that kind of performance in one night. Even when I first started fucking guys as a college student, I couldn't do that. Five, six maybe, and then I was done for the night.

1. What is a "prayer call"? People praying over the telephone? Maybe there's an app for that too? 2. He's correct, but it has nothing to do with young people identifying and speaking their TRUTH. Having the wherewithal and courage to do that implies a brighter future, rather than one that seems "dark and depraved" to some. I'd turn that line of reasoning right straight around - it's his view of the country, and what he wants to do about it, that is truly "dark and depraved". 3. And why on earth might THAT be? Could it be that intelligence and reason is gaining ground over blind stupidity and adherence to a message of despair, unreason, and other-worldly judgement, based on ancient tales of a deity preferring one tribe of his creation over others? Or, as the Church-Lady on SNL used to say - could it be (I don't think we can actually type that moniker here on BZ), so I'll just go with "The Evil One" ??? 4. It was never his, nor those that believe as he does, in the first place. This nation is multi-cultural, tolerant of every legitimate belief-system, and those rights are enshrined in the Constitution. The implication is (as well as his voting record) that he speaks for some Deity, which he most certainly does not. His ilk have merely been steeping in their miseries for centuries, living under the rocks, hiding from the sunlight of decency, honor, and respect. Mr. Johnson's ilk own nothing but their own depravities. What a pitiful excuse of a man - consumed by fear, envious of those who aren't. 5. No, "God" will not lead us this way or that way; it never has, and it never will. As I recall the religious teaching, that particular Deity (who morphed from a regional "war-god" into the omnipresent Lord and Master of the Universe over the millennia); read more in Joshua. is thought to have given humanity a choice. Do good, or do evil. It is "We, the People" who will either lead through these difficult times, or allow themselves to be led by these unholy intellectual midgets. That's the only choice, and it's ours - we, the people - who will make those decisions. And, we have the tools to effect that choice, if we use them properly about a year from now. If we can't be bothered to use those tools (one in particular), then we have no one to blame but ourselves. As to what comes out of the mouth of that bottle-blonde stooge, she only further embarrasses herself by opening that hole in her head, yet too stupid to realize it. Doesn't she know that Almahty Gawd doesn't like women to dye their hair some other color? I don't simply believe this, I know this - because Gawd told me so. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Well, damn ... sorry you can't make it this time. I am taking some license here, assuming you're including us pigs in the "gentlemen" phrase ....

What it all boils down to in the end, is men are going to do what they need to do. Gay, Straight, Confused, whatever. In the fuckjoints, who cares if they're "married" or not? They're there - taking/giving loads right along with every other guy, usually shoulder-to-shoulder and hip-to-hip. Whatever other baggage they're carrying, it's locked in the car they drove there in - which is where it belongs.

Perfectly said. It's universal, it's humane, it's the definition of decency, it's singular, it's personal, it's intimate, all at the same time. Is there any way you could pull Mr. Johnson aside for a moment, and share your insights with him ??? Pleeeeease ??? I'll restrain him (have gear, will travel) long enough for you to talk some decency into his head - if that's still possible.

As do I. I understand that many guys don't live in an area like Ft. Lauderdale, and the opportunities for in-the-flesh cruising has faded for a lot of guys. That said, I'm glad I did move to Ft.L., and ditched all the apps shortly after that. I did hang on to one of them for a while, since I had met guys that became buddies, but that scene is over a thousand miles away now. Sure, I still keep in touch with some of them, but it's not the same as it was - and that's ok.

Wow ... I think so too !!! In the tradition I grew up in, a marriage between a Protestant and a Catholic was incomprehensible for the Swedish-background person. In Sunday School, we were literally taught that the Catholics were going to Hell. Why? Because they worshipped statues !!! This was the official word handed down by the "Svenska Evangeliska Lutherska Kyrka pa Amerika" (Swedish Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). There were other "synods" reflecting different national origins too. One Sunday a month we had Communion, which wound up with the congregation stood up, reciting the Nicene Creed, and it ended with the sentence "this is most certainly true". At the moment when the congregation sat down - nothing but the rustling of ladies dresses - I laughed out loud. This was a big church, balconies, and everyone turned to see who had committed such an offence against the Lord. What amused me was, after standing to recite that whole creed, the necessity of adding a separate disclaimer of affirmation at the end seemed ridiculous. My parents faces instantly turned to embarrassed, blushing stone - and I received the beating of my life when we got home. Right now, as I type this, I'm almost laughing all over again.

Well, no - you're not the odd one out by any means. I too love natural Holes (on men, not women, which I have zero experience or intereste in fucking), for all kinds of reasons. Just one example: Holehair helps hold the loads off previous Cocks in place, instead of being wasted dripping onto the floor. Well, another example: Holehair adds another dimension to the rim of the Cockhead as it fucks that bare skin can't offer. I could sing songs all day long about Holehair, but - time's short today.

Welcome, BlondeTabu. "Nice and friendly" is good for starters, but the real reason a lot of us enjoy BZ so much is the honest exchange of ideas - yours included. So, fear not - share your unvarnished viewpoints, just like everyone else does. We'll be waiting to hear more from you.

When barriers are used, there's zero chance for that magical "connection" I sometimes go on about. If every bottom insisted on a condom, my sexual career would be over. Might as well just fuck my fist (without a condom).

Great reply. I am sure that a large percentage of our BZ members have not a clue about the complexities of Bd/Sm, the "power-exchange", the Leather Ethic, or anything else about that magnificent method of ordering one's life. And, that's ok. No one knows everything about every other thing right out of the box; learning, open-minded-ness (that was awkward, but ...) is one of the important things about being alive and productive. I think that relatively few have the courage to confront any urges to this kind of sexual connection, but for those that might, all they have to do is ask. That's ok too. It's easy to forgive uninformed lack of awareness. Aggressive ignorance, not so much.

What I wonder is, what planet is this guy on ??? Maybe he's on Earth 2, with all those Johnsonites .....

Hell, no. I can't even imagine what going through something like that must be like.

Growing up in a Liturgical tradition, I thought I knew what religious repression was. I knew there were other "types" of protestant churches, of course - like Mission Covenant, for instance - but the world of truly hideous rejection of common sense "churches" was unknown to me. I even knew there was a Catholic church on the West side of town. Growing up, I gradually became aware of the wide diversity within "Christianity", but not until I had a lengthy discussion with a guy I know that grew up with these shackles, did I realize how emotionally crippled these folks are. In that guy's case, he managed to come out the other side of that tent of atrocities, and became a highly intelligent force for good in this world. I wonder if Mr. Johnson would even be able to comprehend the journey my friend had to undertake, just to tear that fundamental mess out and become a decent, contributing human being.

Lots of us are of like mind. When it's time, I want to be as deep in the Hole as possible, and stay there until the balls are calling for some air.

When two guys who love/care for/enjoy all facets of each other's lives are together, I understand that. To me, however, kissing is for lovers, if one is lucky enough to have one. I don't mean the "peck-on-the-cheek" type, I mean the deep sharing that guys that love each other experience. Short of that, the only excuse I can think of for kissing a guy is if he's just sucked a Cock off.

The "traffic light" construct have been the default "safewords" forever, and the fact that it encompasses three stages of activity (stop, caution, go) can be useful. That said, I prefer to ask the prospective bottom to come up with his own word, which implies he also consider acts he might prefer to postpone in the proposed initial scene. It encourages him to reflect - however momentarily - on associations wherein he might need to use it. I've actually taped a little note somewhere in the slingroom with his choice of word, just to be sure I'll remember it (especially if the scene is to take place in a number of days). Also, as part of the "warm-up", I ask him to repeat his safeword, to make sure he remembers it, and have him explain his understanding of what calling out the safeword will do. The choreography of a Bd/Sm scene is important for two reasons: it demonstrates the capability of the Top to the bottom, and helps the bottom feel confident that he'll receive what he's interested in, and nothing he isn't. I also look for ways to praise, congratulate, encourage (not too much, of course) a newbie, which only builds his own confidence. I know that some Bd/Sm Tops would never let one vowel of praise pass their lips during a scene, for a variety of suspect reasons, but an innocuous word of encouragement almost always helps put a novice at ease, which is one of my goals. There is an old adage among Bd/Sm Tops that states "a boy must be broken down first, and then re-built to the Dom's specifications". That has never made one iota of sense to me. Competency really counts in these kinds of scenes.

I'm so sorry so many actually had to deal with such an outrage. I simply cannot imagine how one get's past that, but clearly a lot of you are dealing with it as best it can be dealt with.

So, if that's the case, the next step is to officially "open things up", as the saying goes ... right? Then, neither guy has to come up with bullshit excuses, try to remember what excuse he used last time, and you guys can enjoy the thrill of fucking/getting fucked together ... each of you gets to wallow in pigsex, gets to watch your partner wallowing in pigsex, maybe even going to orgies together. And, all of it will be on the up & up !!! Win/win, right?