hntnhole

For clarity, I have nothing at all against sex outside a relationship. I did it for decades, with the full knowledge, encouragement, and support of my live-partner. And, because I knew how much he needed outside sex, I did the same for him. It threatened our love for each other not one whit, since it was openly discussed, agreed upon, and acted upon without any deceptions. Thus, it is not what I would call "cheating", since no dishonesty at all was involved. I can commit enough disappointments in myself without purposely setting myself up to commit even more. I know you'll find this hard to believe <polite cough>, but the other day at the dog park, some woman started in on me and a friend about calling the cops, and neither my friend or myself were even involved in the incident. She would not stop, and I saw red - stood up and verbally shredded her right then and there. The worst part was, when I next saw her, I actually had to walk up to that ridiculous woman and apologize - and that really hurt, but decency demanded I do it. grrrrrrrrrrrrr The question is, what is it that drives some of us to even want to bother living down to other peoples standards in the first place? Particularly when failing in that vain pursuit only diminishes us as men? To the polyamory thing: That's a very interesting take on creating new "relationship/family" structures, and I think it could work for a lot of guys. The only negative I see at this point, would be that at some point, some guy that has yet to mature might be invited in, and stir things up a bit. But, a household "constitution" which governs everything might overcome a mickey slipping through. For myself though, "home" would be just that - my home. Just because I went to the grocery store (and took my Cock with me, obviously), I wouldn't fuck some guy in the bread aisle (yes, I know the visual must be dizzying). I do get what you mean, in that each member of the family-group would be entirely free to share sex with any guy anywhere, anytime, and have no cause to feel ashamed or worse, guilty. Instead, he would feel great about it. It's certainly a more productive, healthy construct than trying to emulate that which never did, and never will apply to men like us. After all - it's in the Constitution !!!

Wait a minute ..... you meant some Tops are way to picky, right? Those are usually the not-entirely-self-confident guys, either new to the scene, or perhaps a few more deep-seated insecurities. Just because a guy likes to fuck Holes doesn't mean his mind is completely in focus. We have to become comfortable in our own skin, just like bottoms do. Even when a guy is "born" to it, none of us are born with the techniques and skills that usually only come with time and practice.

Bingo, Bruce999. That was my usual m.o. at the tubs. Or, if the a/c was blowing too hard, around my shoulders. Then, when the bottom glances away from my Cock long enough to notice a little smile on my mug, that's often all it takes. Another approach in the orgy room, is just sitting, watching guys take loads, jacking, and when a guy pauses, just say something like Well hello there ... see something you want?

I'm REALLY surprised by the huge difference between cut and uncut Cocks .... 62% to 11% !!! I look forward to reading that article tomorrow ... and I'm very pleased to see that one of my favorite depravities is considered negligible !!!

Wellllll ... there are guys that enjoy "cheating"*, merely for the sake of doing it. Some are even really hot guys. I'm no shrink - but I have to specify again that these are only statements that apply to me, and if other guys can benefit from reading them, great. If not, ok. It's the sharing of perceptions that I enjoy so much on BZ, and was the impetus for this thread in the first place. That said, if you mean gay men in general need to think carefully about what they not only want, but what they can offer, I completely agree. When we love another man, it's a pleasure to give as well as receive in the relationship. When you have some time, I'm wondering what's in your mind related to "build a different kind of home". There may be more than one weasel in that woodwork !!! *again, that term may need a more clear definition as it relates to gay men

I may be many things .... and Proudly so ..... but born yesterday just ain't one of 'em ..... Even over the ether, it can happen ... really cool , huh?

So I tried to remember - I know where it was*, but not exactly when. So, I clicked on 36-40. Then, I saw that it was the lowest number of all. Figures .... Never-the-less, .... It's all about Cock/Hole/Sperm *described in an earlier post

I completely agree, but without the horror you had to go through. I did allude to this requirement for any relationship I might ever consider, among the others. A merger of two like-minded men, each "whole" in and of himself, becoming one-half of a bigger, larger, more satisfying "Whole". Even when there are multiple men comprising the "family unit", each one is embraced as a "whole" man. I only know about the Leather Families of years ago, but it stands to reason that several men certainly could form a "family unit" for the benefit of each. My apologies for the lack of clarity in describing this above. I'd put that down to merely a lack of self-confidence. However, if invited to clarify, and they don't/won't, it's an eyebrow-raiser. I believe that it's easier, certainly. The focus may be a bit shady, and still work for some guys, but - we are who we are - and clarity is always good. Dependable, trustworthy, honest, reliable are key-words for me. "he gets what he gets": LOL .... well, in our kind of lives, yeah. If no "notice" is given, there can't be any expectation of preparedness either !!!

That is exactly where I lay the blame as well. Men like us simply don't fit the "mold" for others, especially when they're infused with the phoney, anti-human bs foisted upon those who don't fit the mold. We, as non-normative men - gay men - have been, are now, and will be rejected merely because of the fact that we are born differently. Odd, isn't it - that unless we grow up "obviously" different, we're included ... until all of a sudden we're not. This is why we must build supportive cultural structures that reinforce us. But, you probably figured out that this is the reason I wrote this post in the first place, didn'tcha ... you sweet boy ....

Thanks, rock-cock-jock, for the commentary. However, I disagree. Unfortunately, that's simply not the case fo "any other sexuality" in many cases. For instance: Christmas was the important get-together for my family and my Aunt Bitch's family, Being 1st generation Americans, the traditions of the homeland - especially certain foods - was important. In later years, as an adult living in Chicago with my life-partner, I could easily drive over to one ethnic neighborhood on Clark St, and buy all the special Christmas delicacies, and then drive about an hour out to the Western Burbs (where the alluded to dread Aunt Bitch lived - who always hosted at Christmas), and deliver a substantial amount - basically the entire traditional Christmas Eve dinner for 10 sometime during Christmas week. I was always invited, but my life partner never was. He was never even alluded to. I found that to be as blunt a rejection of who I am as a slap in the face, particularly since cousins had come to our home in the city any number of times. That wretched Cunt, not merely two-faced, but 4 faced, with as many chins to match never replied, when I wondered aloud if my life-partner might be invited, nor did her miserable husband (a pastor, no less). The cousins did ask why I and my partner were never invited, I later found out, and the reply was something like "he's chosen a bad life", or words to that effect. When I finally, after 5,6, years of performing this annual task, and decided I had other things to do, they all wondered where I was this time. Fuck 'em. Let then eat whatever they can scrape up. Why on earth would I ask my life-partner/lover to subject himself to such treatment? So, NO. That kind of "family" does not deserve the Honor of my lover's presence, his grace, his caring, his intelligence and depth. I first heard of this kind of attraction years after we were together, and I think it must be true. I didn't then, and don't really know now either exactly why, but there was just something about him that made me smile, just being around him. At home, at the offices we shared, walking down the street, whatever. He was just exciting. That hole has crusted over with time, but it's still there; I miss him.

Sure there is !!! I'm not speaking here for every Top in a backroom, but I like to try every Hole (when available), and then go back to the one I liked best and Breed that one first. Every Hole has something going for it, few have everything going for it. Besides - the more Holes, the more fun it is. And, you're right about being thanked - it's much appreciated when a bottom thanks me for the load, or even just the rut.

I agree. At the Eagle back in Chicago, there was always a big fish-bowl full of condoms near the front of the bar. At the end of the night, it was still there, and still full of condoms. It was part of keeping the cops away from the backroom.

Of course. Removing the necessary dishonesty inherent in the word "cheat" and retaining all the thrill of fucking a lot of Holes or getting fucked by a lot of Holes by feeding each partner's Lust together (or, separately, as noted - each guy going to some different fleshpot than the other partner, and with the full knowledge, support and approval of each other's actions), removes the entire necessity of "cheating". Au contraire. It was entirely endorsed, supported and encouraged, and one of the cornerstones of our 30+ years together. To the poster's viewpoint, of course his current relationship is not what mine was. Describing mine may assist him in building a successful, cheat-free relationship next time around. He can consider my thoughts or discard them. He cannot, however, consider other guys input without the input being in a reply. I am not familiar with what a "Green Card" marriage is, but I surmise that it's some sort of 'fuck free' contivance. However, what I can say is, the only thing I cared - then or now - is/was about him, us, our relationship, and not a whit about what anyone else thought. Fyi, those 30 years were filled to overflowing with every good thing; a few arguments, of course, but we also had a rule we both followed carefully: never go to bed angry. Any disagreements, arguments were cleared up before we hit the hay. When I was at fault for whatever, I owned up to it and said so. When he was, it took a while, and he really tried so hard to say those two little words - occasionally I almost laughed at how hard it was for him to let "I'm sorry" out of his mouth, but we both put our love for each other far, far above some petty disputes. Always. I can partially agree with that, assuming that each partner desires honesty in the relationship, works to establish and maintain it. Some men are most comfortable living their lives without a relationship, and that's 100% ok. Some men want to be one half of a whole, and that's 100% ok too., and for those guys, so is establishing a firm foundation of equality, respect, and honesty. Facts are facts; there's no point in pretending they don't exist. Gay guys who try to emulate "normal" (i.e. hetero) relationships are setting themselves up for failure. Depending on cultural norms that simply don't apply to us as suitable building blocks for a successful relationship is a shaky endeavor at best. Be honest with each other. Be trustworthy from the beginning. We are not straight, we don't fit into the Ozzie & Harriet cultural mold, so we must create our own. If one guy in a budding relationship likes the idea of sneaking in extra sex, he should at least mention that fact before making commitments he knows he won't live up to. In other words, again, be honest. When we are dishonest, we diminish ourselves, our humanity, and there's no reason to do that. That was my point to the poster of this thread.

From the Oxford: passion; a noun, describing "strong and barely controllable emotion." Given the reference to "barely controllable", I would hazard that in a sexual sense, a well-balanced man would experience tremendous enthusiasm for Cocks/Holes, but "barely controllable" might be a bridge too far. Ieatcumholes is on target here, in that while he's focused on eating wet, used Holes (or, even unfucked Holes, if he's first on the scene) he is none-the-less "in control" of his emotions while doing so. Men who love eating ass - whether full of Sperm off previous Cocks or not - think of a Hole as the gateway to a thrill. Sort of like standing in line to ride a roller coaster at some sordid amusement park. Eating ass is anticipatory. Putting one's mouth on another man's Hole is akin to starting a snowball rolling down a hill, getting larger the farther it's pushed. The focus, the anticipation, imagining how great it will feel on one's Cock, all of that and more is filling the thoughts of a man with his mouth/tongue probing a raw Hole. A man who loves eating Holes knows from experience that it's the gateway to the bottom's Lusts, and a Lust-driven bottom will always be a better fuck for both T and b. While all languages in current use are "living", in the sense that gradually the meaning of words can be altered a bit, "passion" in it's classic sense could be a bit archaic. Today, we describe ourselves as "passionate" about this or that, but we don't mean barely controllable. Passion, in the old definition, isn't that far from "rage", and we don't use those words as synonyms today at all. Sharing a similar "enthusiasm" for Holes as Ieatcumholes, I completely understand his meaning, and, like him, if I could return to my youth (knowing what I know now about myself), I would waste one on instant on hesitancy, inhibitions, all of that nonsense, and plunge into the deep end far earlier than I did.

Thanks, rock-cock-jock, for that interesting response. I think it's the farthest thing from "crazy". I'd not known of the Maslow pyramid, and I see it's geared towards marketing. The only layer of that pyramid I might question would be the middle one: Family Connections. While I know there are many guys who's family affirms and upholds their "gayness", that affirmation seldom includes our focus on raw sex, particularly with many men. It occurs however, that the biological family can be replaced with a "family-of-choice", aka a "circle of friends". I know that in my experience, only one member of my family came anywhere close to accepting my life-partner, and they knew absolutely nothing about our devotion to Pigsex with many, many men. While some members of my own family were invited to our home a number of times, we were never invited to theirs for so much as a cup of coffee, let alone a meal. That applies to parents, cousins, even a sister whom I love, and that love is returned. I might add that there are ties (both inculcated and professional) to O.R. in each case, and I doubt it ever occurred to any of them that they might consider some measure of equality. I completely agree. Each day presents a new opportunity to be a better man, and even when we fall short sometimes, the next day will be another chance. Supporting a partner (relationship) in his journey, and receiving support from him in our own journey is crucial to the health of the relationship. Another way to put it might be enjoying a really close friendship with a guy, each guy supporting the other and receiving support in return. I find it interesting that sexual needs are at the foundational level, in that many folks outside our little niche of proclivities would put other issues at a more basic level. The implication of the pyramid then, is health of the sexual quotient of the relationship, which includes accepting, upholding, sharing, celebrating whatever that requirement may be. Thanks for sharing that pyramid and your interesting commentary. Cheers !!

Wescos, I'm assuming .......

Thanks, nastysubbbbottom, for the reply. If I were on the prowl for a relationship, it would be somewhat limited. I wouldn't be looking for "love" - I would be looking for some compatible, shared values of course, and an intelligent guy able to carry a conversation. I would be perhaps interested in a guy who has interests other than just the sexual, a well-rounded kind of guy. I'm afraid I don't deal well with dullness, disinterest, dishonesty, so it would have to be an "open" type of relationship - No "rules" about outside sex, no cultural bs accepted. I'd want a free-thinker, a guy who knows himself, knows what he needs, and gets it. I would want to be able to trust him, of course, and give him no reason to become distrustful of me. And, I would not be interested in a guy addicted to chemicals, since I've already had a go-around with one of those. I could bring honesty to a relationship, I could bring trustworthiness, and some of the nicer things in life. I would not be willing to support him though, since I would want a responsible kind of guy, and being involved in gainful work/volunteerism is an important part of one's character. I would enjoy "spur-of-the-moment" stuff like lets go to X place for supper, or see an exhibit or the rodeo or whatever. That kind of thing is fun too. Since I'm mostly Top, preferably a cumdump I could whore out and enjoy sharing. Send him out for loads if I'm busy with something else. Hit the fuckjoints together, so I could watch, encourage, help deepen and reinforce his Lusts, all of that. All of that said, I'm not all that interested in a relationship; I'm interested in what kind of things guys on BZ would want in one. Thanks again for your reply.

and presto !!! Your answers have arrived, PleaseBBmyass !!!!😉

I had a difficult time with that when I first discovered BZ too. Initially, it was a bit off-pissing, and what got me outta BZ jail (at least I think it was) was replying to as many posts - or writing new ones - that eventually I was tossed in the "no responses" clink less often. I may be entirely incorrect, but merely "responding" (the little doo-dads in the lower right corner of a post) doesn't count as much as adding commentary to an existing thread, or starting a new one. I have these all these badges, and I still don't understand what they're for, other than I happen to like the discourse and don't mind throwing in my couple of cents worth. As to the messaging, I only used it a couple of times at first, and that was to ask questions of the moderators. I don't use BZ as a cruise-site, which I think is a big part of the moderators business-plan. I still messages only sparingly. In any case, we're hoping you stay, contribute to the discourse (there are some threads that are interesting, some of no interest whatsoever, so choose as you see fit). Some threads I never bother to even look at. Here, it's the discourse that I enjoy. Good Luck.

There may be some truth to this. Just because a guy prefers to Top doesn't mean he's full of self confidence, and quite willing to start the ball rolling. He might gladly join in as other men are rutting in the Hole lying in a sling, but not willing to risk rejection either. There's one other possible aspect: the bottom in the sling can obviously make eye contact as other men walk by, and that may reflect an "attitude" issue. If the bottom is exuding a "superior" or even "aggressive" attitude, his Hole may go hungry.

Well, that's what I'm after. And I'm surprised to read you experienced this at Slammer - my favorite fuckjoint. For me, the entire point of that place is to get my Cock up as many Holes as I can. In the darkroom, there's barely enough light to even see that you're a good looking young cumdump though, so that can't be it. What time of day/night do you go over there? When I hit the darkroom (Fri/Sat nights, maybe around 11pm) the fuckbench is usually full of guys. The orgy room usually isn't in full swing yet, though. I haven't been on Thursday night for quite a while (before covid), but even then there were plenty of Holes taking loads on the bench. As to the general question (picky Tops), not every guy there is as self-confident as they might think they are. I can understand if there are "beginners" to rutting in a lot of Holes being shy to start up the action, but - it your experience, multiple times, is a mystery. It's true that some Tops think they "deserve" only the best-looking, hottest Hole in the place, but that's misplaced insecurity on their part, not yours. It's odd; I can remember any number of times I've had to wait for a chance at a Hole, all of them already being fucked. Since you're " a pretty young and decent looking guy", have you tried Ramrod? There, your youth, good-looks could be used to your advantage, and there's raw Breeding all over the place. Good luck !!!

So we've had some interesting discourse regarding one particular event that often occurs in a relationship, which leads me to wonder: What do you want in a relationship? Since there are different kinds, different expectations, all of that, what is important to you? It can be anything from companionship to a sex partner to financial stability to an "anchor" in the vagaries of life to someone to care for/look after to anything & everything in between. Since the word relationship implies a joint give & take, what are you willing/able to bring to a relationship? Try to be specific in what you're willing to give - which, in a sense - is perhaps even more important that what you want out of it. There are no wrong answers. Thanks.

There is no reason you should. I regret to read that the relationship has diminished because of a lack of honesty within the relationship. It may not even be a "fault", if your partner cannot break free of the cultural (worse, religiously inspired) barriers that may have been inculcated as a kid. Your last two paragraphs are tragic, in that neither of you feel able to grow, mature within the confines of your relationship. When these relationships are founded upon the sand of dishonesty, they seldom last, since that unwelcome quotient always diminishes both men. I hope you're able to move forward in your life, and continue to grow in your self-awareness. My best wishes to you.

Having re-read the original post, several observations: 1. It appears that each guy in this relationship entered said relationship in good faith. 2. One of the partners became dissatisfied, in that he was feeling neglected, explained that fact to his partner, and his sexual needs continued to be rejected. 3. Rejected partner sought outside sex, after repeated attempts to come to terms with his partner, meeting continued rejection of his needs. Of course, this is a regrettable situation, since presumably there were common interests, common caring between the two. That said, from what the original post information contained, there was a drifting apart. This may be for a number of reasons, one of which could be partner #1 (our poster) grew in his self-awareness, as most of us do. His need for more Cock than partner #2 was willing/able to provide became evident, and every one of us knows how crucial to our well-being that need is. After repeated communications of that fact (more Cock) between the two bore no flexibility in the sexual facet of their relationship, partner #1 felt trapped in an unfair relationship, and did what most men in that situation would do. Of course, it would have been ideal had he terminated the relationship first, and then exercised his compulsion, but at least he did try to communicate first. Partner #2 can hardly claim that he'd been "cheated on", since he knew from a number of conversations, over a period of time, that partner #1 had shared these concerns in what sounds like an honest, up front attempt to continue the relationship within re-negotiated boundaries. That's far more effort at communication than many relationships receive. I find no fault with partner #1, in that he tried a number of times, over some space of time, to be upfront, honest, and met with no compromise at all. Now. All relationships are - in a sense - living, breathing entities. The men involved are living, breathing, growing, maturing entities as well. Real relationships are not cast-in-concrete structures, without any room to evolve. They cannot become a prison and continue to thrive. If/when a relationship - stuck in the original construct - is unable to be flexible, remains static, unbending, it was more of a "control" entity than a real relationship. I find no fault with partner #1, as described in the original post. He grew, matured, became more aware of himself, his needs, and communicated that to partner #2, and was rebuffed. It would appear that partner #2 was more interested in possessing, controlling partner #1 than in allowing his partner to mature, grow in who and what he is, and I find that inflexibility the fatal flaw in the supposed "relationship". I do not endorse, within the confines of a committed relationship, "cheating" in the classic sense of the word. It is not honest to the partner, it is not honest to the relationship to violate the terms without discussion, perhaps even trade-offs* in the boundaries. Neither do I endorse "relationships" that are based on controlling elements baked into the relationships. When there is no possibility that both men can grow, mature, expand their lives - sexual or otherwise - then that relationship has become (or perhaps always was) more of a prison than a healthy vehicle for the maturing of both men. Thus, and only from the information provided in the post, I fault partner #2 for the foundering of this relationship. If, on the other hand, partner #1 has not been truthful in his original posting, obviously the fault lies with him. All we have to respond to is the scant information provided in the post. It is always a sorrow when relationships are founded upon contrivances such as control rather than growth, restrictive rules rather than expansion of the partners as healthy, growing men. Hopefully, each of these two men will learn, become better, more fully self-aware, and find happiness as their life's path unfolds. There is one other potential aspect to this post, perhaps unmentioned. Some of us love wanton Breeding so much that we might be better off avoiding relationships in the first place. These would be guys we call cumdumps, whores, etc, and the men that service them. I happen to absolutely adore cumdumps, and the thrill of servicing them never has receded. To my eternal gratitude, my relationship was founded upon recognition of that fact, and with a man who was every bit a Pig that I am. So, "outside" sex was one of the foundational blocks of our relationship. The point is, each man gets to determine what is truly important to him, (particularly when it is not based in cultural bullshit), and build that requirement into the prospective relationship from day one. *i.e. #1 gets outside Cock, #2 gets more of something he wants - cars, travel, money, whatever ...

Beautifully done ... particularly the last couple of minutes !!!