How to be an ethical slut?

[rawTOP]

On 5/11/2020 at 8:10 PM, Sobaystud said:

The worst part of this whole saga (unlike HIV) is that anyone you come in contact with has now been exposed to your selfish activities.

Very different from two consenting adults risking STD's / HIV.
These people are more likely to go "visit" family members or "do whatever they want" without regard.

I don't care what you do with your body - but don't put other people at risk (especially fellow high-risk gays) because you can't simmer the fire in your pussy for a little while. The inability for people to think or act beyond themselves is beyond comprehension. Still - guys on the apps are all open doors and shit. What fucking disappointments.

So the question going forward is how to be an ethical slut? I think it would be good to have a community discussion on it…

One point of view is like that expressed by @Sobaystud above. That approach aims for zero risk. It's admirable, but is it maintainable?

Those of us who went through the AIDS pandemic had a variety of approaches to dealing with it, and I think some of them are appropriate here. Personally I got through the '90s with 1) the best information I could find, and 2) risk reduction (but not complete risk elimination).

So when the Limelight reopened a dark room, it was the first one in the City in many years. I was right in there for hours at a time. I was doing oral, j/o, and while  I was vers at the time, but never got fucked in there. It wasn't the place. What shocked some guys was that I wanted them to cum on me. They thought it was really risky, but I knew it wasn't (HIV dies when exposed to air). The dark room was really hot and I'd get totally sweaty. The loads guys dumped on me would mix with the sweat and when I'd leave I was literally dripping wet with a mix of cum and sweat. I loved wiping my had over my chest and feeling it totally slick and covered in cum.

The point of that story was that I took a little risk. I did stuff that was edgy for the time, but it was all based on risk reduction. That said, I didn't stop living my life. And I still had a blast.

I'm not sure it's smart to tell people "just say no" – it's like religious fundamentalists – they bottle stuff up so much that when they finally let go they do some really fucked up shit. Personally I think we need a middle ground. Sensible risk reduction that might not eliminate all risk, but a strategy that reduces and spreads out the risk. So in other words, the risk you might take going to one crowded sex party – can you spread that out over different types of activities, so you might get say 2 hookups a week for 6 months that are the same cumulative risk as that one sex party?

 

Here are some of what I think could substantially reduce risk. Feel free to add your approaches…

Trusted Partners – This one is totally HIV Pandemic 101 – get to know guys before you fuck and get a sense for how much risk they're taking. Whether they've been tested and have antibodies, etc. There's this one little Asian guy I know is pretty kinky who wants to hookup when things get back a bit closer to normal. He's been possibly more conservative than me through this whole thing, so I know hooking up with him is pretty low risk. And I know him and trust him.

Sex Outdoors – The news today was that a study done in China with extensive contact tracing found almost no cases of outdoor transmission. So hooking up outdoors, in parks, in the dunes at beaches, etc. could be a viable way to reduce your risk.

1-on-1s Instead of Groups – Let's say you go to a sex party and come in close contact with 100 guys, but only have sex with 40 of them. Well, you just took on 100 units of risk for only 40 units of benefit. If you did 40 1-on-1 hookups you'd get the same benefit for 40% of the risk, and probably have more sex in the process.

Regulars Rather Than Strangers – If we're talking about units of risk, hooking up with the same guy 5 times, while not 1 unit of total risk, is less than 5 units of risk. Maybe it's 2 units of risk. But you just saved 3 units of risk…

Quickies – That's another finding that came out in the past day or two – the shorter the interaction, the less risk. So a 5-10 minute pump-n-dump is substantially safer than an hour long hookup. I'm not going to say it's 1/12th or 1/6th of the risk, but maybe it's 1/3rd of the risk.

Full Hoods with No Openings – If you like blindfolds, and you're thinking about wearing a mask during sex, combine the two and wear a full hood. It can be a $15 spandex one or a rubber / neoprene one, or a $300 custom leather hood. The point is, it actually makes the sex hotter while reducing risk. Now if giving a blowjob is important to you (or in my case felching a cummy hole), it may not be a workable solution. But if you don't feel like you're giving up anything, go for it…

Here's a decent article that goes over risk reduction strategies for more mundane tasks, but a lot of the bullet points apply to sex equally well…

 

So the next question is when… I think this one is a bit more contentious. Clearly some people never stopped hooking up. And other people are going to wait for months. And if that works for them, 👍, but it won't work for everyone.

Personally there are several things I'm considering…

1. Is the hospital system overwhelmed?
2. Is the risk low enough to be acceptable?

While NYC isn't to their target of 30% of hospital beds free and 30% of ICU beds free, they're getting there. So even now I think #1 is a big issue here. In a couple weeks I wouldn't consider it to be an issue at all.

Then there's the question of risk. That's a lot more complicated. I don't interact with a lot of people normally, so my risk is primarily personal (and risk to my husband). I don't have the worry of elderly friends or family. I should also mention that my husband got both an RNA and antibody test recently and both were negative. So I'm almost certainly negative as well. Bottom line, if you catch it there's a little less than a 1% chance (on average) that you'll die. On the risk charts, being 52, I'm pretty much smack dab "average". Then there's the risk of all the other complications. If someone gave you a bowl of 100 M&Ms and said "there's one in there that will kill you", would you eat any of the M&Ms? Having candy is pretty optional, so no you probably wouldn't. But what if it were the only food around and you hadn't eaten in days? Then yeah, you'd probably risk it.

But it's not like there's a 1% chance of death every time you hookup. The 1% chance of death gets multiplied by the chance you'll catch COVID in that particular hookup, and that's where the whole risk reduction thing comes in. IMHO, you have to take the risk of that particular hookup and compare it to things like going to the grocery store, or hanging out with friends in a park for an hour or two. Just because it's sex doesn't mean it's undeserving of some of your "risk budget".

Personally I'm considering hooking up in a couple weeks. (Just considering at this point – this post is part of my thought process). And I'd start with low risk stuff like trusted partners, sex in parks, and quickie pump-n-dumps. A low risk activity like those once or twice a week will have a significant quality of life benefit.

 

So what's your thinking on all this?

[HardOneLA]

I'm 10+ weeks without cocks as well and totally horned for them.  But having also lived through the AIDs years I guess I'm aware and cautious.  I too plan on waiting a while and then hooking up along the lines you mention.  Be a long time before Slammer or the baths are open again.  

[Pumpinmyhole]

Well, I've been hooking up with a guy that I started playing with at the beginning of March. Pre lockdown orders.  After lockdown, we kept fucking.  He's the only one I've played with and I trust him when he says I'm the only one he's played with. 

As an airline employee I've been asking myself "what's more dangerous...going to work and being in an enclosed space for 3+ hours with (lately) 120 strangers, or hooking up with a stranger in a hotel someplace?"  I honestly think it's riskier for me to just go to work.  But if I hook up in my hotel on my next trip, I'm probably the high risk factor for anyone I play with.  In addition to telling guys I'm undetectable poz, should I also tell them I come in contact with a lot of people a few days per week?  Will websites with profiles that already ask for HIV status now start asking for COVID status/risk?  

In the near future I have a layover in DFW, and the hotel is in Fort Worth.  Historically I don't have much luck finding dick in Fort Worth, so whether I do or don't will probably be a non issue.  At the end of the month I have 40 hours in Portland.  Will I be online and on the apps?  Honestly I'm not sure yet.  I've been checking out Portland guys on various sites, and there are definitely some that have no issues with hooking up.  I guess I'll play it by ear.

[rawTOP]

40 minutes ago, Pumpinmyhole said:

As an airline employee I've been asking myself "what's more dangerous...going to work and being in an enclosed space for 3+ hours with (lately) 120 strangers, or hooking up with a stranger in a hotel someplace?"  I honestly think it's riskier for me to just go to work.  But if I hook up in my hotel on my next trip, I'm probably the high risk factor for anyone I play with.  In addition to telling guys I'm undetectable poz, should I also tell them I come in contact with a lot of people a few days per week?  

Just put in your profile that you're an airline employee, then it's disclosed and they can choose what they want to do. Since they're probably pretty anonymous encounters, maybe wear a full hood to protect the top since you're the biggest risk in the room…

[Pumpinmyhole]

2 minutes ago, rawTOP said:

Just put in your profile that you're an airline employee, then it's disclosed and they can choose what they want to do.

My thought was to, at the very least, tell them.  Come to think of it, most times in the past I generally offer the information to anyone who hits me up.  Almost always it's "flight crew laying over, here for one night only, so looking for now".  I'll continue with that should I decide to play later this month.

[Guest Appletree]

Isn't a monogamous relationship basically just a quarantine? If someone is fairly confident they don't have it there is no reason why they shouldn't hook up with someone else in the same situation. Of course it all depends on trust and overall risk factors, but in theory you should be able to socialize with other tightly quarantined folks if the quarantine is secure.

[MartyHVL]

Thanks for a real starter of a conversation rawTop and i must say i like your thoughts so far.

Like you, i have been trying to imagine a life post covid and i have been struggling to see a way towards a 'normal' - but unlike you i haven't been looking at the personal hookups but more the business hookups - so saunas etc and could not see a way to that norm.

But you look towards people's personal risk assessments and choices and it raises yet more questions,  but rather optimistically some new possibilities.  Unlike you i did not live (actively anyway) through the AIDS pandemic as i was in primary school - so dont have those lessons to fall back on.  But i find it inspiring to hear someone who did - look towards a way where we responsibly balance risk to safely play.

Being a sub bttm that loves hoods etc - i do like the idea that my kink may actually be a 'safe' way to have sex....  but i wonder how many people are now simply scared (rightly possibly) to go outside.

How many people are going to be willing to play the risk game?  How many people will play that game sensibly or otherwise?

Great discussion and certainly going to be interesting to hear a global view on this.  I am in the UK and though one country has started to gently ease lockdown, most others have not.  Opinion is rightly swayed as nobody knows any facts.  Media is out to scare - so truth is hard to find....  like cock hahaha!

Thanks for the discussion!!

[Oldercumslut]

I like your list.

As a health care provider and someone who does public health, this whole thing has left me deeply conflicted.  I know how the virus spreads, and I know my risk factors.   But I'm also one who uses submissive bareback sex as a form of self medication.   I can only resist so long.

The list is a well thought out list that gives a framework for people to use.  It is just a framework though.   People need to look at their own localities.   What I would risk in rural Arkansas isn't the same thing I would risk in New York City or Chicago etc.  Fortunately I'm into Anon and have gotten int he habit of being hooded.   I have used on with a mouth hole, but I may drop that and use a full face mask.  I've alway had a bottle of hand wash and towels handy for my tops. (I've always been a considerate slut)

The reports of the virus in Semen don't really concern me.

[sthrnguy]

This is honestly the most monogamous I have ever been in my life...

[tallslenderguy]

i'm writing this on the fly before work, so haven't thought it out, but i think BB is a risk reduction. I.e., breeding vs oral.  The virus enters the body via the nose, mouth or eyes. Wearing an N95 while you fuck and washing your hands before and after.  Changing clothes after. Use glory holes and only fuck. Shower after and change your clothes. Learn to avoid touching any part of your face after contact with another person or being in a place with a GH.  Finding ways to have sex without touching our faces... a challenge when we start thinking about it lol, but stick to breeding with a N95 mask and as much barrier as possible between bodies, which sounds like glory hole sex. Still have to think about contaminated surfaces though. 

[MTWTFSS]

Conflicted -- understand your reasoning, which is fairly sound but, for me, part of the encounter is kissing - I have not hooked up with guys in the past who say they don't kiss -- I would feel like I am missing something without kissing - which probably means (for now) I won't play

[evilqueerpig]

Isn't the term "ethical slut" an oxymoron?

[blackrobe]

14 hours ago, Oldercumslut said:

As a health care provider and someone who does public health, this whole thing has left me deeply conflicted.  I know how the virus spreads, and I know my risk factors.   But I'm also one who uses submissive bareback sex as a form of self medication.   I can only resist so long.

This really puts the situation into perspective for me. 

We each have baseline health conditions, a number of people we come in contact with, and behaviors during those contacts. The most variable factor and the hardest to get a handle on is how many people in your location have COVID-19. It's not an intractable problem and, after a little digging, there is a risk calculator out there that I think might be illuminating for people to take a look at. Even with my limited contacts, wearing a mask, and social distancing, my risk is fairly high because of where I live.

We all have our needs. Exercise. Social contact. Touch. Fucking. Using and being used. Giving and taking loads. Be informed about your risk and then you know how much risk you present to others as well.  

As a sidebar, I'm curious about how submissive bareback sex is considered self-medication. I know that semen exchange has shown a positive effect on mood in some studies, but I'm not sure @Oldercumslutmeans the same thing...

[bareback-flipflop]

1 hour ago, evilqueerpig said:

Isn't the term "ethical slut" an oxymoron?

I don’t think so. For instance I am a really slut but if I feel sick (i.e. covid) I will isolate myself. 

[bareback-flipflop]

I don’t meet other people, I work from home, I order food, at the rare occasions I wear mask. 

I don’t have only one fuckbuddy. After more than two months long real isolation, I’m sure that I am healthy.  If I meet only one guy, I won’t infect him for sure but he can me. But I’m not sure that I can have sex only one guy.  If I have sex more than one, I can transmit the infection from the one to the other. It’s obvious and all it must be clear to all guys.

The only question is - I copy it from another topic - whether I’m responsible for the careless behavior of these guys if anyone else they didn’t have sex with is infected with COVID-19.

 If yes, I have to continue this voluntary celibacy not because of myself but the others. It’s not really fair.