Trans men In bathhouses

[brnbk]

7 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

I'm not sure what to make of this muddle of a paragraph. Are you describing a person who was assigned male at birth, but identifies as female (which is what "trans" means)? If so, continuing to call her "he" and "a man" and saying "he" was "dressed as a women [sic]" is insulting; she's a woman who was born in a body that doesn't conform to her identity. And parenthetically if she's still attracted to women, that would make her a transwoman who is a lesbian. 

I assumed that Trans would include both transgendered( men and women  who identify with the opposite gender but do not feel the need to have a sex change surgery) and transexual ( people who wish to have a sex change operation).The key difference between the two is the former want to live only occasionally and intermittently as the other gender i.e. one opposite to what was assigned to them at birth, while the latter, transexuals wish to live as the other gender, all the time. 

Hope that clarifies things a little bit more. 

My friend does identify as a guy who like to cross-dress (Trans) and has a wife but does like to cross-dress occasionally. He does seem to take pride in his male body and does workout quite a bit. The term term Trans is wide and should include all those who identify in the broad umbrella of Trans.  

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by brnbk

[Hard1]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:40 PM, Chubbytransguy said:

How do you feel about transgender men in places like bathhouses and male-only swinger’s clubs?

We go to those type events, never had an issue, only offers to play

Edited December 8, 2023 by Hard1
add a word

[ErosWired]

1 hour ago, brnbk said:

I am not aware of the details of this and honestly I wouldn't've have suspected that was the case, though I did know that the Nazis disliked any kind of "imperfection" in the Aryan race and did try to exterminate disabled people. I am going to try to read up more about it. 

A little background: Dr Hans Asperger, the pioneering psychiatrist who made the first classification of what was until recently referred to as Asperger’s Syndrome, had a clinic for autistic children in Vienna in 1938. As the Nazi regime came to power, he spoke in favor of “race hygiene” policies that included forced sterilization of individuals deemed mentally unfit or undesirable, and actively worked with a child euthanasia program that ended the lives of children under his care. Here’s a link to some critical historical analysis:

[think before following links] https://molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-018-0208-6#:~:text=Her text established what has,to misfits was nothing less

[BootmanLA]

1 hour ago, brnbk said:

I assumed that Trans would include both transgendered( men and women  who identify with the opposite gender but do not feel the need to have a sex change surgery) and transexual ( people who wish to have a sex change operation).The key difference between the two is the former want to live only occasionally and intermittently as the other gender i.e. one opposite to what was assigned to them at birth, while the latter, transexuals wish to live as the other gender, all the time. 

Hope that clarifies things a little bit more. 

My friend does identify as a guy who like to cross-dress (Trans) and has a wife but does like to cross-dress occasionally. He does seem to take pride in his male body and does workout quite a bit. The term term Trans is wide and should include all those who identify in the broad umbrella of Trans.  

I think you're misunderstanding what the terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" mean, at least as I understand them from extensive contact with the trans community.

"Transgendered" means someone whose gender identity - how they identify themselves - does not correspond to the sex assigned to them at birth. There's nothing in "transgender" that says "I don't feel the need to have surgery" - the only relevant factor is the misalignment between gender identity and assigned sex.

"Transsexual" at its core means the same thing, although it's often used more specifically to refer to someone who has undergone sex reassignment surgery.

When you refer to people who "only occasionally and intermittently" live as the other gender, the "trans" term we formerly used (although it's becoming less favored) was "transvestite." Today, it's considered more polite to use the term "cross-dresser" when referring to someone who sometimes dresses (and behaves/lives) as the opposite sex, but not on a full-time basis. This is how your friend would be identified - a cross dressing man who still is only interested in women sexually.

We consider all of these "trans" identities, but when we say "trans man," we specifically mean someone who was assigned female at birth but who identifies as a man - whether or not he has begun hormone therapy and whether or not he has undergone any surgery. Similarly, a "trans woman" is someone who was assigned male at birth but who identifies as a woman (not intermittently, not occasionally), again whether or not she has had surgery or is on hormone therapy.

[ErosWired]

1 hour ago, BootmanLA said:

"Transsexual" at its core means the same thing, although it's often used more specifically to refer to someone who has undergone sex reassignment surgery.

I think I may have misspoken at some point either in this thread or somewhere else recently when I was speculating on the confusion caused by conflicting uses of the word ‘trans’ in reference to both transgender and cross-dressing. Where I may have used transsexual as distinct from transgender, I was intending to draw a distinction between transgender/transsexual and transvestite. I think that, to those unfamiliar with the distinction, the trans prefix may have a tendence to confuse and conflate.

Edited December 8, 2023 by ErosWired

[Theo8]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:37 PM, topblkmale said:

Why allow trans men when many gay bathhouses still ban trans women and cis women? 🤔

because they're not men? 

[Theo8]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:09 PM, hntnhole said:

 

But how on earth can a Cock and balls be fashioned out of a vagina? 

  

it's called phalloplasty and the balls aren't fashioned out of the vagina

[hntnhole]

20 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

I never feel like you're an idiot, total or otherwise

Neither do I. 

It may be some voices around here aren't worth the read, but BlindRawFucker1 is definitely not one of them.  

[brnbk]

 

 

On 12/7/2023 at 10:03 PM, ErosWired said:

I think I may have misspoken at some point either in this thread or somewhere else, the trans prefix may have a tendency to confuse and conflate.

Same here

 

On 12/7/2023 at 8:49 PM, BootmanLA said:

and intermittently" live as the other gender, the "trans" term we formerly used (although it's becoming less favored) was "transvestite." Today, it's considered more polite to use the term "cross-dresser" when referring to someone who sometimes dresses (and behaves/lives) as the opposite sex, but not on a full-time basis. This is how your friend would be identified - a cross dressing man who still is only interested in women sexually.

 

Thank you for informing and I believe you are actually right. I do remember the term transvestite and not sure why its considered offensive as transexual seems to be pretty close to that term, and is considered socially acceptable. 

 

I still believe that gay men do have a right to a gay male bathhouse and the presence of trans men can introduce heterosexuality or perhaps to be accurate transsexuality into the space. I think more information needs to be available such as how many FTM i.e. trans men are gay. i.e. prefer men and how many are straight , i.e. prefer women. 

To some gay men,  having sex with a FTM trans man  or their presence in a bathhouse might feel like straight sex, having sex with a women instead of a man. People do feel the way they do and i think bathhouses are about sexual freedoms, live and let live.  I will give u an example that I am sure many folks here would have encountered. The tops that love to share a bottom and the Top that does NOT like to share. the moment he realizes u are into group or more than him, he wants nothing more to do with you... Is he bigoted? No, i just think people are wired differently including in terms of sexual tastes. 

 

[ChargedLoadLover]

No, hell no. Fuck no.  Enough already.

[topblkmale]

What if the transman is straight and wants to bring his woman along for some fun? Why not be inclusive of straight men (and women)?

[viking8x6]

10 hours ago, brnbk said:

I still believe that gay men do have a right to a gay male bathhouse and the presence of trans men can introduce heterosexuality or perhaps to be accurate transsexuality into the space. To some gay men,  having sex with a FTM trans man  or their presence in a bathhouse might feel like straight sex

 

8 hours ago, topblkmale said:

What if the transman is straight and wants to bring his woman along for some fun? Why not be inclusive of straight men (and women)?

I'll just point out here that all of this is not dependent on the person in question being transsexual. What about non-binary people? What about eunuchs (of whom we have at least one on BZ)? What if a bi guy want to bring a woman?  In point of fact, some bathhouses are open to both male and female on particular occasions, and at least one that I used to go to occasionally in SF (no idea if it's still open) was always open to both.

If you aren't comfortable with the rules of a particular space on a particular occasion, that's on you. Choose a different one. But IMO bathhouses are generally not so small that you can't just go there and say "no" politely if a person who approaches you isn't your cup of tea. And "yes" if they are. Which is what I believe is the proper interpretation of @brnbk's comment:

Quote

...i think bathhouses are about sexual freedoms, live and let live. 

 

[austin_submale]

I would have no problem with it.  I'm cool with trans and have played with both trans men and women in the past and would love to again.

 

[ErosWired]

26 minutes ago, viking8x6 said:

I'll just point out here that all of this is not dependent on the person in question being transsexual. What about non-binary people? What about eunuchs (of whom we have at least one on BZ)? What if a bi guy want to bring a woman?  In point of fact, some bathhouses are open to both male and female on particular occasions, and at least one that I used to go to occasionally in SF (no idea if it's still open) was always open to both.

This layer of discussion on the role of bathhouses as sexually open spaces being available to all tastes and persuasions seems to me to overlook the salient point behind the OP’s question: He’s asking about men-only spaces, and whether you believe such women-excluding places should exist or not, they do. (See also: Bathrooms, everywhere)

While it is valid to say that a bathhouse should be large enough to politely decline an unwanted approach, consideration must also be given to the right of a person to be free from undesired sexual contact. Let’s assume that I have taken a bathhouse room and wish to lie on my bed with my ass up toward my open door as an invitation to men to use it. I feel fingers deep-probing my cunt, perhaps inserting my dildo, playing with me at length. At last I glance back, and discover that the person who has been doing this is a woman.

That would not be welcome, and it would be too late for a simple ‘no thank you’ - I will already have been subject to the use. Therefore the only way to protect myself is to either put up a notice saying “no women”, or not put my ass up, which means that much of my incentive to go to the bathhouse is lost. It’s not just a question of me wanting to impose my personal preferences on others; it’s a question of knowing whether I have a safe space to be who and what I am. By and large, gay men do not seek, and may be repulsed by, sexual contact with women, just as many straight men might be repulsed by the thought of fucking a guy. These are visceral reactions, not a product of bigotry, and must be taken as valid considerations. We have all-male venues because we need them.

[viking8x6]

2 minutes ago, ErosWired said:

This layer of discussion on the role of bathhouses as sexually open spaces being available to all tastes and persuasions seems to me to overlook the salient point behind the OP’s question: He’s asking about men-only spaces, and whether you believe such women-excluding places should exist or not, they do. (See also: Bathrooms, everywhere)

Let’s assume that I have taken a bathhouse room and wish to lie on my bed with my ass up toward my open door as an invitation to men to use it. I feel fingers deep-probing my cunt, perhaps inserting my dildo, playing with me at length. At last I glance back, and discover that the person who has been doing this is a woman.

That would not be welcome... Therefore the only way to protect myself is to either put up a notice saying “no women”, or not put my ass up, which means that much of my incentive to go to the bathhouse is lost. It’s not just a question of me wanting to impose my personal preferences on others; it’s a question of knowing whether I have a safe space to be who and what I am. By and large, gay men do not seek, and may be repulsed by, sexual contact with women, just as many straight men might be repulsed by the thought of fucking a guy. These are visceral reactions, not a product of bigotry, and must be taken as valid considerations. We have all-male venues because we need them.

I agree with you about much of this. Hence my comment that if one isn't comfortable with the rules of a particular space on a particular occasion, one shouldn't go there.  Or in your hypothetical case, one should put up that notice or choose another activity. But I would argue that it's not a question of whether the space is safe to be who and what one is, but whether it's safe to engage in a particular activity (yes, I'm splitting hairs here).

In any case, the management of such establishments clearly should make their policies very clear, for the benefit of all their would-be patrons.