tallslenderguy

i sometimes reverse the fundamentalist Christian notion and quip: "being gay saved me from "God." Though i know some Christians (and Webster) want to take sole possession of the term "Fundamentalist," two towers should demonstrate others possess similar surety. Heck, i've met atheists i would call "fundamentalist." One of my take aways from fundamentalist Christianity is the (almost) aversion to the absolutism that undergirds it. The only thing it seems i know for sure is that i can be wrong. That has "enhanced [my] philosophical capacity" (a lot lol). Funny story i think you'll appreciate. While i was still religious, i sought every cure or remedy from being gay. i wrote several Christian leaders thinking they might have the answer/s, and never heard back from one of them. At one point, i emailed Noam Chomsky (not about being gay), and he wrote back. Quickly, and every time. One of the religious notions i grew up with was that only Christians have the ability for 'good' (the reasoning is "good comes from God and nothing good comes from people...). The thing that floored me was how kind Noam was to me, a complete stranger. He was kind, patient, honest, vulnerable and connected with me in spite of my being obnoxious with my beliefs. How he was helped me see through my false ideas, he indirectly helped me see and accept reality. In that vein: "about Crossley." "The gay man's psyche" strikes me as a fundamentalist sort of thing to say. Or, at least, a fundamentalist way of saying it. You note: "many theoreticians see 'UAI' as 'reactance' or kind of reactionary resistance to decades of prevention campaign messages, which are aimed at kind of prototype of 'the healthy/normal, non-pathological gay man')." i wonder, how many gay men ever thought to use condoms before HIV? Did the term "bareback" exist prior to HIV? As a kid, when i realized i am sexually attracted to males, i went to my friends for input. Books were my "friends," so i went to the library. Theoreticians didn't vote to remove homosexuality as a "disorder" (from the DSM) until 1973. It wasn't completely removed, as a "sexual orientation disturbance," until 1987. All the 'medical' input i got told me (us) i was sick. Theoreticians are a work in progress, eh? It was processing through my religious background (i was even asked to pastor a church at one point, eek lol) that ended up giving me perspective. Fundamentalists equate their beliefs with "GOD." i went over all the isms (shackles) endlessly, exhausitvely, trying to conform. Once outside it all seems ludicrous, but it seems real on the inside. i think the added dimension of 'God' makes it one of the strongest ethnocentricites around. "God" excuses/explaines a multitude of questions. A result though is a huge sensitivity. i often see things in mainstream culture that appear to have roots in religious culture. Consequently, i wonder how much of research in heath and forensic science is influenced ('confounded') by deep rooted notions.

i've read many posts on BZ (and elsewhere) from bottoms who want to be whored out, so am not surprised that the majority of responses here are from bottoms. For me this dynamic is as much about control as it is about the physical act of getting fucked. Like a few others, when this kind of connection is involved, for me it needs something to make it more personal to work? Idk, because you did seem to make it more than just hooking your bottom up (i.e., Tops sent you pics, etc.). For me this feels a little like cyber sex. It throws me, because it does involve real sex, but part of it is still 'virtual' for me. For me, a big part of the appeal of being whored out is experiencing the enjoyment of the Top who is doing the whoring, not just the Tops breeding me. For me, those Tops are an extension of Him, sort of like their toys He is using to enjoy His (my) hole. From what you say, this is not ideal for you either, but a substitute for the real thing when you are in a "remote" area.

The notion of easing into group sex seems a contradiction in terms, eh? But i do get it. Your internal slut wants it, your reason has a bunch of "what if" questions. Ditto the advice on prep with clean out and lube. A way you can "ease in" would be to not put yourself in a situation where you lose control. E.g., don't get tied to a fuck bench. If you are at a sauna, say in a dark room, you can simply get up and leave any time you need a break or are through. The sauna/sex clubs i go to have private rooms available as well as just lockers. Getting a room gives you a place to go to if you want to take a break, but aren't ready to leave. Also, keep in mind that things may go the other way for you. I.e., you may not get as much as you want. This isn't as big a deal in larger cities, but i am in a medium sized city. There are times i have been to the sauna and gotten as many cocks as i could take, other times the same sauna is dead and i am begging for it. i see in other posts that you seem aware of this, but i'd choose a place where you know there are plenty of guys wanting ass if that's available to you.

i can't answer that either, so i posed it as a question instead of a statement, i want to be careful to qualify my assertions are often just personal feelings, perceptions vs facts. [laughing at self], i came out of a fundamentalist background, as part of my 'coming out' i tend to eschew absolutes universally. Thank you for saying so. Kindness is important to me, i want to practice kindness. i see stealthing as fringe too. i don't know "Crorssley," but words like "healed" evoke memories of 'reparative therapy' in me (an effect of her unintentional homophobia?). Imagine straight culture treating condomless sex (barefronting?) as a "nasty cancer to be eliminated from an otherwise healthy body of [straights]." Condomeless sex spreads disease, and has always spread disease, in straight culture, it also has the unique potential (to straights) of making unwanted babies. i'm guessing, but confidently, that gay culture didn't invent "stealthing," that it existed long before HIV was around. i may misunderstand you, but i do not consider barebacking to be "compelled...by pathological narratives in gay culture" (perhaps you meant stealthing?). If anything, it seems opposite to me. I.e., the compulsion to wear condoms is (often) compelled by pathological narratives internalized by gay culture from straight. While i can see an argument to be made for condomes in both gay and straight culture, in either instance they seem 'unnatural' to me. Condomes strike me as a compromise of nature that our human reason has come up with to survive or avoid certain consequences (i.e., babies, disease). "Biological (genetic) and personality factors are just as important in sexuality as cultural ones." It sure seems that way to me, maybe even more so than it would to the 'average' gay? i came out of an era and culture that taught me that being gay is "sick and/or sinful." i had to process through (old) medical and religious notions. In the end, it was my one man study that 'proved' to me (i don't present my experience as evidence for anyone else) that my sexuality is, in large part, intrinsic. For me, the pathological narratives came from straight and religious culture. "Hurting someone in your fantasy is not quite the same as doing it in real life. Declaring otherwise can have nasty effects. Poz gay men are stigmatized within the gay community and poz barebackers are stigmatized even within the poz gay community." i so agree with this. Having come from a conservative religious culture. i may be super sensitized to, what often seems to me to be, internalized stuff by mainstream culture from patriarchal religious culture. In fundamentalist Christian culture it is purported that Jesus taught (paraphrasing): 'if you think it in your heart, it is the same as having done it.' The reference was to "adultery." I.e., if one 'commits' adultery in ones heart, it's the equivalent to having done it. i think this notion has infected a lot of mainstream culture and a lot of people unconsciously feel this way. i see a whole lot of difference between thinking murderous thoughts against the person who just cut me off in traffic and a drive by shooting.

Ditto toys and training plugs. Something else i haven't seen mentioned is a speculum. mileage. yeah. i know a lot of guys here insist that they've taken fists and millions of cocks and their hole still returns to its original size (okay, i'm exaggerating). i've have prolly close to a couple of thousand guys. i've had fb's who loved to purposely open and gape my hole (and i loved their lust). For me, my hole reached a place where it is permanently changed. Nowadays i think of it as much more receptive than retentive. i have a hell of a lot more control over my inner muscles, used for milking and squeezing cock, but the opening? It's changed. It even looks different, not quiet, but more of a slit than a pucker. Honestly, i love that. i love seeing the Tops i have been with reflected in my body, makes me feel like there is a permanent connection to them.

It seems that way to me. People like Jeffrey Dahmer come to mind. i want to think that even people like him could be helped if we had the understanding and means to reach them, that they're just beyond our grasp? But yeah, they do exist, no doubt. i can barely wrap my brain around S/m, let alone my emotions. i was bullied a lot as a kid, pretty obviously had 'sub' in my nature even as a kid. my response was to learn martial arts, second degree black belt. i came close to back kicking a guy through a wall once when he got rough with me in a way where i felt threatened, bet he would have been surprised lol. i often steer clear of using terms like D/s in profiles because they are so often coupled with S/m in peoples minds. For me they are distinct and i never purposely try to establish anything with someone identifying with ,or wanting, S/m. Ultimately, it seems to me that a person who feels they have to sneak or steal must feel powerless or inadequate to get what they need legitimately?

Damn, i enjoy your posts, the thought and consideration you put into them and how well you articulate. i have a disposition, maybe a flaw?, where i almost refuse to see anyone as unredeemable. It's hard for me to think of anyone as purely evil (not saying you are inferring "purely evil," i am... and that is admittedly emotional, not necessarily rational on my part). So, it's probably my way of offering that type of stealther an out to say they are "looking for a relationship...." Not activly "looking," eh? lol. i tend to see most "evil" as inadvertent and a result of immaturity vs malicious intent. i know, i could be wrong though. It's just hard for me to imagine a person who is willingly malicious without them having some sort of wound themselves? i see the "advantage over another" that is achieved in such acts as illusionary. On the other hand, there are guys like me who want to be "marked" by another guy, but it is very different in that my offer of myself is a gift given, like a canvas for a creative top to 'mark', paint on. For me, that can speak of a deep (mutual) bond, not abuse. It's an expression of yin/yang. In that vein, to me, the guy who "stealths" (in the way we are speaking), lacks the insight and skill of maturity to get what he really needs, which is the 'yin' to his 'yang,' so he just ignorantly tries to create a facsimile rather than going about it the 'right' way.

i agree. i really cannot see a difference either.

my understanding of "stealthing" is that it (simply?) means removing a condom without the partners knowledge/consent? (i googled it to confirm lol). i think that meaning has been extended my many as an intent from poz tops to poz their bottom. i'd call that "stealth pozzing" vs just stealthing? i've applied the same logic to pissing, and have been what i call "stealth pissed" by some tops who didn't ask, just did it. i originally agreed with find91, but this made me reconsider. In part, i still agree that avoiding anonymous cock probably affords a measure of protection. To me, grindr and hookup still constitute "anonymous," but that's just my interpretation. i've had long term FB's that i still think of as anonymous because our only relationship is hookup sex. The truth is, there are guys who get pozzed by long term partners in so called 'monogamous' relationships. The notion of "protection" is a matter of degree, never really an absolute. Even condom sex is more accurately "safer sex," not absolutely "safe sex." In 2019, the safest sex (by evidence) is with someone on meds, either PreP or HIV suppressed if poz. Things have changed.

Interesting to see where this conversation has gone in two years. i never was a chaser or had the desire to be pozzed. i found out i was poz when i was getting tested to go on PreP. i'm pretty sure i know the guy who pozzed me and he lied about being poz. It doesn't matter to me. i don't 'blame' him, i invited him to my house to fuck me on many occasions. i never wanted to be pozzed, but i always wanted all of the guy fucking me. Condoms offend me pschologically more than physically, but that's me. i don't want to transfer my psychological make up onto anyone else or presume they are like me. my psychology does not dictate social morality. Two years later, i still think it is morally wrong to try and seed someone against their knowledge or desire. To me, the most immoral thing a person can do is vilolate another persons volition. 'Alpha' or not, unless You were raised by and live in a pack of canines, social norms are not going to recognize Your desire to do whatever You please. There are definitely sub cultures that will though, and as long as You move in those circles, yYou're probably ok. The thing that differentiates us (people) from animals or objects, is the ability to reason. i know. There are those who wish to be "slaves," some who wish to be seen as "objects." They key is, it is their wish. Treating those as such is not a violation of their will, it's affirmation of their desire. This is where this stuff all gets tricky by my estimation. The Guys i know who identify as "Alpha" (gay) Males really don't fuck just any guy, they fuck the ones presenting as bottoms. The consent to penetrate is there. Where it gets tricky for me is how many, both tops and bottoms, are conflicted about BB sex. How many on both sides purposely BB despite their profile saying "safe only," for instance. Still, if i guy tells me condom only, i will do everything i can to convince him otherwise, but i wouldn't deem it okay to violate his will and 'stealth' him, and cannot imagine ever doing that as a top. As a bottom though, i have had a few who sheathed through a GH at an ABS and have sucked them just so i could bite a hole in the condom. i've done that, but still think it's wrong. my personal wiring as a bottom is such that i end up loving a guy who does certain things with me without asking permission. i've had several Tops piss in me without asking and the effect is i love them for it. But that is different, because it is not a violation of my will, it is an understanding of it without them having to ask. One of the things i love about D/s dynamic is the implied consent incumbent in such a relationship. Going full circle, i think that is really what stealthers are looking for, a relationship where they can act without having to ask permission.

i post this info occasionally when this topic comes up. If you're eating the typical western diet, you don't get enough fiber. The short version is, fiber is not digested by us, but it does feed bacteria the colonizes our large intestine. There are two types of gut flora, one results from eating a carnivorous diet, the other plant based. As and example, cultures that eat primarily plant based diets do not have diverticulitis. i advocate for as much of a whole food plant based diet as you are willing, total is the healthiest. Avoid laxatives and chemical enemas, they are not going to facilitate fucking health for the long term. There are two types of fiber, each beneficial in their own way: soluble and insoluble. Grains like oatmeal and legumes (beans) are soluble, fruit and veggies insoluble. Soluble absorbs water, insoluble doesn't. Soluble fiber absorbs water and expands making what comes out more bulky (bigger), and usually more formed, thus the experience of of easier clean out with many using fiber supplements like "Pure." Fibers from whole plant foods have the added benefit of making/maintaining a healthy bacterial gut biome, something that i think makes sense for us bottoms to pay attention to given the stuff we are taking in from the other end. i have tried Pure for Men, it definitely bulks me up, but i cannot discern that it makes clean out any easier or quicker for me. i suspect that may just be me though, my colon seems to absorb less water than it used to? Or i drink more water? i know my colon has changed over the years. When i was younger and less informed, i used lotion for lube. Read the label: "not intended for internal use." Ever suck a cock on a guy whose been stroking his cock with lotion? Gives you one hell of a sore throat. Our rectums are just the other end of the same system. We take cocks and toys and fists and cum and piss etc., etc., and endless water to clean us out... that's going to have an effect on our colon. We are putting stuff in both ends, so what applies to the general population won't necessarily apply to us. We have about 25-29 feet of intestine (varies from person to person). Most of that is small intestine, about 5-6 feet of that is large intestine, the colon. i wouldn't recommend a usual practice of chemical cleaning (i.e., laxatives) as they effect the entire 25 feet. When we are prepping someone for colonoscopy (i'm a critical care nurse), the patient is typically NPO (nothing by mouth except clear liquid) for about 12 hours before the procedure. The rectum (aka our "fuck hole") is about 5 to 8 inches (again, varies from person to person), so if that is all you clean and all you are taking is the 'average' cock, just douching there can suffice. Also, the rectum size can be misleading... it stretches ( i've seen figures from 12-20 inches). i think a "rectal douche" is just that, i.e., a "douche" and not a clean out. It will likely work soon before penetration, but it likely won't work if you are heading for a 12 hour fuck spree, depending on what else is in the colon and how far it has progressed towards the rectum. Parastalsis is a never ending phenomena (i.e., the intestines are in constant motion always moving stuff out). i suspect where many of us get into trouble during clean out is when we go beyond the rectum into the sigmoid (beyond the "rectosigmoid junction"). And i don't see any way around that if you are trying to prep for more than a quickie. Google a pic and you'll see that after the recutum the sigmoid forms a sort of bowl, you can see how when you are vertical, the sigmoid is situated to hold onto stuff. When we give patients an enema, we have them lie on their left side, right knee bent. After the rectum, comes the sigmoid and that takes a turn to the left (your left). Logically, if you want to empty the sigmoid, lying on your right would direct contents towards the rectum, but most of us are standing in a shower or sitting on a toilet as part of our clean out process. Bottoms are brilliant and innovative though, so most of us have figured out that if we lie down and do our clean out in stages, more comes out. Then there the super long dildo trick to get around that curve and release trapped water... and stuff lol. sigh.

i think it's hot to watch, but i can't get into it. Same with toys. i have a drawer full (really) that i bought in the heat of the moment, but rarely use. The only thing i can figure is sex is so much more for me than the physical sensation, it's the connection with another guy. i just can't get off on topping myself. on the other hand, i suspect i'd suck myself off if i could lol.

curiously, i have had FB's flake on me too. An anonymous hookup is easier for me to rationalize as a closeted guy who chickens out last minute or who just gets off on the talk. A guys who's hooked with me on several occasions really has no excuse, it just simply inconsiderate self absorbed asshatery. It takes 10 seconds to send a text saying "sorry, can't make it." It's especially immature when they are the one that contacts me and asks for the hook up, then flake. i think the buffer of cyberspace makes it easier for guys to be jerks

Flakes were pretty much non-existent prior to internet 'hook-up' sites. i lived in Virgina Beach/Norfolk (coincidently the largest Naval base in the world ? ) There were a couple of parks that i never left without hooking. And rest rooms? Damn, there were several where i could get fucked all day. Of course, there was vice cops to worry about, sex was easy, plentiful and instant. That was during the 80's and 90's. Those same places are still there, but cruising just doesn't happen there anymore.

my permutation would pivot on the thought that i believe many of our notions of love come from heteronormative culture. i think that's changing, but i think we all have internalized cultural notions of love that may not nurture our nature. i see gay guys who have coupled in open relationships, and that makes sense to me. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me that one person can be ones 'everything.' i think a lot of couples split because they unreasonably expect their partner to be someone they are not. It's a popular notion to equate 'love' with compromise. i think love is the opposite, that it accepts a person for who they are, not: "hey, i compromised and did this for you, if you 'love' me you would do ___________ for me. i think that is quid pro quo, not love. To me, the relationships that have the best chance of being 'good' are those where there is chemistry. I.e., (way over simplification) Top with bottom. Or maybe something that isn't sex, just other good chemistry where each compliments the other. Having said that, i fell head over heels for a Dom guy once, and a lot of it seemed pretty magical, so what do i know? lol

my thoughts went a similar place. i was married to a woman for a huge piece of my life and trained myself early on never to cum until she had cum first. All my experience with a woman (only one woman, but lots of experience) helped me understand how dependent a woman often is on her top to give her an orgasm. i say "often" because it is not necessary for the man to make a woman orgasm. She can take the dom position and make herself orgasm using the mans cock, just like the man may be using her vagina to pleasure himself. i think that's probably why i was able to do sex as long as i did with a woman, because the important thing to me was giving her an orgasm, not me. Over time, that became a problem because there was a part of her emotional wiring where she just wanted to be taken, without regard to her orgasm. And i totally get that, because i am wired that way lol. To me, it has nothing to do with wanting to be a woman. i don't want that (nothing wrong with those who do, it just isn't me). i love being a man who receives other mens pleasure into me. i love having orgasm, but the way i am wired, i love having an orgasm that a man gives me, not one i gave or took myself. i just love that kind of connection. In a sense, even though i am not a woman, i feel like i get that aspect of being a woman... i.e., being dependent on the man to have an orgasm. Just like with a woman, it is not necessary, but it's the way i am wired emotionally.

i've tried to take a hand on many occasions, and will continue to try, but finding a Top who is patient has been a challenge. About half the guys who have tried have been great, the other half just thought they were. When it comes to fucking, ego doesn't really get in the way (for me), but when i sense the Top is impatient, it ends up making me tighten up vs being more receptive. i've had a long term fantasy where i fall asleep with a guy and wake up in the morning only to discover His hand and arm inside of me. [laughing], i know that is pure fantasy on my part, that the liklihood of anyone getting their hand and arm in me while i sleep is unrealistic. For me though, the fantasy speaks to the psychology of being penetrated by a Man and connected to Him. The image of a puppet is pretty glaring, it's so fucking intimate. The notion of a Top doing that so stealthily speaks to His need/desire to have a guy in that way and is also an expression of what i think of as affectionate dominance. The permission is already known, so the 'possession' is assumed and taken during vulnerability, which requires a huge amount of finesse.

i'm a critical care nurse, so i'm not easily grossed out. For me, you identify the one positive: spontaneity. Horny, need, can arise at any moment. Clean out can be a process, so being able to fuck in the moment is very appealing to me, not scat. Course i'm bottom and it seems the Top would be the one dealing with it. i wouldn't want it at all if i were a Top, i'd just calmly mention he's not clean. For me it's the smell, but then, i like clean in general. i also like a little cologne. There's a guy at work who wears cologne and it's like a pheromone for me, makes me want to back my ass up into Him.

i tried to "love" this, but i am out of loves for today.... mostly spent on this discussion. This sort of post keeps me coming back to breeding zone, i am so pleased that we are having this discussion and am grateful to you for starting it. i find you wonderfully insightful and articulate... total turn ons for me. marry me?

lmao, i must have known that instinctively.

i really like Elbow Grease. i have never purchased J lube, but have had it used on me. i'm not certain about this, but i don't think silicon toys can be used with Elbow Grease? i'd be happy to find out if i am wrong about that, because i have two really nice veiny cock dildos that fit my fuck machine that i'd really like to use EG with... water base just doesn't do it for me. Should prolly try J Lube.

Agreed. To me, gay culture should be one of the most enlightened, we should really be experts on stereotyping and its hazards. i'm mystified by how much we have borrowed from patriarchal, straight white culture. my guess is its misguided attempts at acceptance. This is a great discussion.

i think you make some good points. i think it would be naive to think there is no bias in porn media. i know my perceptions of black men have changed dramatically over my life time, a lot of those changes resulted from relationships with black guys that exposed my false, and often deeply hidden, cultural notions. Someone in this thread or another mentioned that they find the descriptor/s"good looking, etc., " off putting. me too. i'm honestly intimidated by guys who i perceive as gorgeous, makes me feel inadequate. These days i am much more inclined to judge attractiveness from attitude than i am physical looks. i can't prove why, but i am initially attracted to black men because of my experiences with them, so it's totally subjective. Out of all the black guys i've been with (a lot, i lived half my life in areas where blacks were the majority population), i can remember only one who didn't make me feel wonderful to be with because of a deeper than physical connection. i have fallen in love with soooo many black hook ups, lol. fuck. The one black guy that just made me feel used was probably the hottest one of all, by normal social standards of beauty? It never stopped me from hookng with Him, but i never had to bite my tongue from declaring my adoration for Him like others. i have wondered if it's not so much what they have as what they don't have? I.e., the white privilege attitude? idk i think it would be interesting to take a pole and see the similarities and differences of how guys perceive beauty, attractiveness. Of the two black guys on that list, i'd put Mario Costa in the Top three. But honestly, i had to google to confirm that He is black. i'd put the other black guy, "Cutler" about the middle of the list, i liked His eyes and smile. i think it's telling that they put a rebel hat on Him?!? Someone i've long had the hots for is Barak Obama lol. i think He is totally hot, but for me so much hinges on personality. Looks just isn't my primary factor when it comes to attractive.

First off, thank you for speaking up. Secondly, i'm sorry you had to speak up. fuck. There is also the phenomena of internalizing something from a dominant culture in order to find a semblance of acceptance, and i think a lot of "race play' falls into that category?

Can’t think of anything to add, i agree